Reader Comments"Disarming the Critics"
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Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.216.204 Fri Feb 8 9:23:48 2002 EST Comments: I've looked at Judith McGaw's "Early American Technology"(1994). In one chapter, she gives the result of a carefully designed probate survey of the Mid-Atlantic region. Survey looked at probate records in the 1700s for 5 rural counties in New Jersey and Pennsylvania -- chosen to catch the westward expansion. Counties were Hunterdon and Burlington Counties in New Jersey ( near Trenton and Philadelphia), York and Adams Counties in central Pennsylvania, and Westmoreland County in western Pennsylvania. In the case of York/Adams counties, she examined all probate records from 1700 to 1789. In the other three counties, she examined all probate records from 1700 to 1799. Total number of estates were 350. On page 332, Judith McGaw indicates that her data shows about 60 percent of households in frontier areas owned firearms versus about 50 percent of the households in longer-settled areas. This is much higher than the 14-15% that Bellesiles gives on page 13 and page 445 of Arming America, even though two of the counties (Westmoreland, PA and Burlington,NJ) were also in Bellesiles's survey (note at bottom of page 445. Note that McGaw's total sample size is smaller than Bellesiles because it is limited to rural areas in a specific geographic region. It's too bad that Bellesiles notes were lost in the flood -- it would have been interesting to compare his results for the two common counties with those McGaw found. (McGaw indicates that she keeps her data in a detabase for processing and analysis.) I wonder if Bellesiles cross-checked his results with those obtained by McGaw and other historians (i.e.,for data they had obtained on firearms possession from their probate surveys?) Several people have already noted one limitation of a probate survey -- it does not catch the common event where an elderly man gives his firearms to younger male relatives. I would note that it also does not catch another common event: where an elderly person sells his firearm because he needs money and his gun is valuable property he no longer needs. Social Security didn't exist in the 1700s and 1800s. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 156.153.254.10 Mon Feb 4 12:39:18 2002 EST Comments: McGaw's book contains an essay about the prevalence of guns in probate records, and yes, more than half of all estates have guns in them in those samples. The essay also is clear about the limitations of probate records, demonstrating their incompleteness in a number of respects. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.219.237 Mon Feb 4 1:02:47 2002 EST Comments: POST 24 Has anyone read Judith McGaw's "Early American Technology" ?? I haven't yet but plan to do so shortly. The 1995 review in "Reviews in American History" had some very interesting comments -- see http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/rah/23.4seely.html . Some excerpts: "she, too, takes as her fundamental premise the centrality of technology to understanding American history" "Thus the focus of her study is the mundane and ordinary, as McGaw inquires about the tools that people owned and used before 1850. Drawn from probate inventory records from several counties in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, McGaw's sample allows comparisons over time, and patterns she identifies often undercut standard assumptions about American technological independence, especially on the moving frontier. For example, as many people owned Bibles as guns (half), only a few more than half owned a plow, and 20 percent of women made do without a large kettle. In her interpretation of more than 26,000 items, she teases out information related to gender patterns and ethnic styles of the utilization of technology, especially and agricultural technology. " Gee, I had the impression from glowing review s of Arming America that Bellesiles had came up with the idea of studying Probate records? Also, if above review is correct, why did McGaw find half of people owning firearms whereas I thought Bellesiles found only 5% of population and roughly 23% of white males 16+ years of age( page 446-7). (Households vice individuals?) It should be interesting comparing Bellesiles findings with McGaws -- hope to do so in a few days. McGaw's book is available via the online booksellers (Amazon, Barnesand Noble,etc ) if anyone wants to check for themselves. On a separate note, I suggest people look at Foxfire 5 for information on how Southern mountaineers crafted flintlock rifles -- the blacksmithing techniques are very interesting and indepth. The article mentions an eastern Tennessee gunmaker (Bean) circa 1790 and makes the point that Bean made plain utilitarian rifles -- people could not pay for the expensive, time-consuming wood checkering , engraving, silver inlays found on more expensive rifles made on eastern seaboard. The point being that many of the plain rifles made circa 1790 may not have survived because of the lack of aesthetic appeal --they were tools and hence less likely to be preserved in a museum or arms collection? The second point being that gunsmiths may have been far more common than Bellesiles indicated -- Bellesiles indicated that the technology for making flintlock rifles was difficult, advanced, not widely-held -- which may not have been true. Tocqueville noted that books were fairly common even in remote wilderness homesteads. I wonder if Diderot's Encyclopedia or books on technical blacksmithing/ gun smithing were common? Note: Another modern day source on rifle-making is a chapter in "The Art of BlackSmithing " by Alex Bealer. Also, Bellesiles mentions lack of flints as a constraint on militias (e.g., page 182, 186) Foxfire 5 shows how flints were easily made. It also describes the manufacture of gunpowder. Name: passing by - 208.25.51.28 Sat Feb 2 14:03:05 2002 EST Comments: Hmmm, now we are dealing with "culture," not what was represented as historical fact, and the fraudulent citing or quoting of sources is not dishonest. Five to one academia is going to cover this up, while continuing to fail students and castigate others whose indiscretions are more trivial. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.213.130 Fri Feb 1 19:59:03 2002 EST Comments: FYI, some recent (last three days) news items related to Bellesiles issue: 1) http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/radosh/2002/rr02-01-02.htm 2) http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/029/living/Historians_criticize_author_s_gun_researchP.shtml Name: Regarding Prof. Hickey - 208.25.54.124 Fri Feb 1 1:07:30 2002 EST Comments: I disagree. My experience in publishing in the scientific academic press is that editors determine the suitability of an article for that journal and then refer it to specialists in the subject area. Therefore when I published on hummingbird plumages the articles was sent to the recognized authorities in that area, people that had the expertise to pass judgement on my research, analysis, and conclusions. Obviously the fault is not all Hickey's, other people were involved, and he is just the one who admitted he was taken in.Which puts him one up on many. However, regardless of any referee's area of expertise, the agenda in Bellesiles' JHA article was overpowering - that alone should have raised suspicions and invited further inquiry. And then, I believe, serious concerns had been expressed prior to the award of the Bancroft, but people still wanted to believe. The concluding comments of Lindgren and Heather are pertinent in that respect - (paraphrasing) if something looks too good to be true, better check it out. In the end, its not the NRA with egg on its face, and an article which should have been "investigated" more closely in 1996 has become an embarrassment, I would assume, to academic and professional historians. Name: Hickey wasn't the problem... - 156.153.255.236 Thu Jan 31 14:23:12 2002 EST Comments: The JAH used him as a referree because of his expertise in militias, not guns. The problem was that this sort of fraud is so rare (or at least, is believed to be so rare) that historians don't normally check to see if a history professor is making stuff up. The problem is that history journals need to start checking facts as carefully as law reviews do. When credible claims of fraud are raised, historians need to examine those claims seriously, instead of just dismissing them because they don't come from members of the club. Name: Kathleen Mero - 209.239.201.157 Thu Jan 31 12:54:39 2002 EST Comments: For details on Professor Bellesiles recent claim that he now remembers doing the San Francisco probate research in Contra Costa County not San Francisco County, please go to their website: www.cocohistory.com Name: Frank a. Baldridge - 208.25.54.242 Thu Jan 31 10:05:56 2002 EST Comments: As the comment period closes, I believe that it is appropriate to thank Clayton Cramer, James Lindgren, Justin L. Heather, and others for their efforts to protect the integrity of historical research and our American heritage. The paper (draft) by Lindgren and Heather is a "must read" for anyone interested in the analysis of history. At the same time, we need to realize that bigger issues than fraud are involved in this controversy. Apparently Professor Hickely, and others, were not doing their jobs as referees for the Journal of American History. Nor was the editor of that journal when he submitted an article to referees with no expertise in the subject matter. The claims of academic historians regarding objectivity have been exposed as political agendas, agendas that, thanks in part to the OAH, permeate our educational systems today. How can students use the study of history to avoid the problems of the past when the past is deliberately misrepresented to advance political agendas? A even bigger problem is that people outside the academic historical profession believe that "history" is factual, when in fact the profession is caught up in "historical imagination" and "relativism." Perhaps that's why their degrees are in art and not science, and why there is the subject area of historiography. But even then, certain standards should be met. And when they are not, try playing the "victim." Bellesiles job should be threatened, but did that other claimed harassment really occur? It will be quite interesting to see what happens - the ivory tower will probably try to hide it behind an "Ambrose smokescreen." Perhaps we should also thank Bellesiles for exposing the realities of neomarxist polemic, "academic thought," promotion, grants, and agendas. Obviously, historians are still writing for their peers. Name: S.M. - 64.252.34.246 Wed Jan 30 15:20:51 2002 EST Comments: More fabrication: http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment012902.shtml Name: Stan Marcus - 64.252.32.141 Tue Jan 29 15:35:29 2002 EST Comments: The Omohundro Institute of Early American History and Culture (OIEAHC) and the American Historical Association (AHA) councils should pass a resolution decrying the defamation of those who spoke up against the Bellesiles fraud. Name: Stan Marcus - 64.252.32.141 Tue Jan 29 15:11:28 2002 EST Comments: Bellesiles is a fraud. Other former supporters have turned critics, among them Donald Hickey, a history professor at Wayne State College in Nebraska. Bellesiles previewed the thesis of his book in a scholarly article that he submitted to the Journal of American History. On receipt, the editor asked Hickey to "referee" it according to the time-honored process by which one scholar's work is evaluated by another. Hickey recommended its publication, saying it made a persuasive case that guns weren't widely owned in America's early days. Since then, Hickey has changed his view of Bellesiles' work. "It is a case," Hickey said, "of genuine, bona fide academic fraud." Searching for a motive If so, what would be the motive? Some observers think the Bellesiles and Ruggiero affairs could be cases of professors allowing their personal philosophies to overwhelm their scholarly objectivity. "Bellesiles' book," Roth said, "is an essay for gun control and from a political viewpoint." http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0201230024jan23.story Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.218.34 Tue Jan 29 11:14:03 2002 EST Comments: CORRECTION TO MY POST 22 (dated Mon Jan 28 15:56:04 2002 EST ) below. When I said "Bellesiles account of the Battle of New Orleans seems based solely on John Williams Ward's 1955 book" I should have noted that I was talking about the primary battle on 8 January and I should have said "Bellesiles account of the primary conflict (8 January) in the 1815 Battle of New Orleans seems based LARGELY on John Williams Ward's 1955 book" Bellesiles also cites John Elting's "Amateurs, To Arms!" (1995) and Latour "Historical Narrative" at one point in the narrative. My apologies. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.215.249 Tue Jan 29 0:58:50 2002 EST Comments: NOTE Veritas msg directly below at Mon Jan 28 13:58:03 2002 EST " The Chronicle of Higher Education" is inviting comments on Bellesiles's pitiful attempt to rewrite history... http://chronicle.com/colloquy/2002/guns/guns.htm " Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.215.249 Tue Jan 29 0:47:36 2002 EST Comments: POST 23 As noted in Post 22, Bellesiles echos John William Ward's assertion that Andrew Jackson's cannon won the Battle of New Orleans. This assertion is wrong for several reasons: One, Jackson's swift attack on the British vanguard on 23 Dec 1814 stunned the British commander (Keane), paralyzed him into inaction, and gave Jackson 5 days to build a fortified line and bring up cannons. Jackson's hastily assembled force, made up of militias from Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, New Orleans,etc. won the battle --not cannon. Two, Jackson's 7 main cannon batteries would have been swiftly overwhelmed by British infiltrators in night and fog, if they had not been protected by Jackson's militia infantry. Three: Certainly cannon batteries and a fortified line were necessary for Jackson to protect his badly outnumbered forces --roughly 5000 troops of mostly militia vice the British Army of over 10,000 Regulars. However, an analysis of the main battle of 8 January shows that rifles, not cannon, inflicted the most damage on the British attackers. In this battle, Jackson had a fortified line (rampart of piled earth about seven feet high with a four foot ditch in front). From Jackson's viewpoint (behind the line, facing the British Army), the line stretched 700 yards from the Mississippi River (on the right) across an open field to a swamp on the left. Seven primary cannon batteries were established --from Battery 1 on the right near the Mississippi to Battery 7 on the left near the edge of a swamp. After Battery 7 , the fortification extended into the swamp for roughly 700 yards and was defended by Coffee's 1,200 Tennessee riflemen. Jackson also had a cannon battery on the opposite (west) bank of the Mississippi, which could provide a crossfire into the area in front of Jackson's line. The British army made a diversionary attack to seize a redoubt near Battery 1, but failed. The main attack, consisting of 2100 Regulars, was made on Battery 7. Later the attack was reinforced by a Highlander regiment (900 men), bring total attackers to 3,000 men. Roughly 2,000 of the attackers were killed or wounded in a 25 minute attack, while Jackson suffered roughly 10 killed and 10 wounded. Analysis of weapons suggests majority of casualties were caused by RIFLE fire, NOT CANNONS. Remini indicates that Carroll had 1600 troops, spread over 290 yards ( 870 feet.) Remini indicates that Carroll's riflemen were set up in 4 lines which rotated to the front in sequence-- i.e., men in Line 1 fire, then move to back of Line 4 to reload while men in Line 2 step forward to shoot,etc. This is consistent with available space -- 400 men on line would give about 2.2 ft per man. Assuming flintlocks could be reloaded within 45 seconds, the 1600 men could pour out roughly 2300 rounds per minute. Jackson mentions Coffee's men also being engaged (Post 22) but Remini's description does not mention Coffee's men firing on the British right flank from the swamp --although the tactical layout would suggest this. If they were involved, aggregate rifle fires could rise to near 2800 rounds/minute. Remini indicates that Battery 5 had two 6-lb cannon and one 18 lb cannon. (Designation indicates weight of projectile that is thrown. ) Battery 6 had a 12-lb. Battery 7 had a 18-lb and a 6-lb. The reference book "Weapons and Equipment of the Napoleonic Wars" by Philip Haythornthwaite indicates that light canister shot would be used at ranges less than 250 yards, that 6-lb cannon would shoot 85 bullets per shot, 12 lb'er 170 bullets/shot , and 18 lb'er 255 bullets/shot. It also indicates that 6 lb could be fired 2-3 times a minute (assume 2) and that 12 lb'er and up would be fired once a minute. (Remini indicates that visibility was initially 200-300 yards as early morning fog lifted. ) Based on the above, Batteries 5-7 could put out about 1190 bullets/minute. However, probably only 2/3 of the bullets would be effective, due to the size of the pattern at 200 yards (about 64 feet) causing some bullets to go over the heads of the British and some to plow into the mud. If this is assumed , then the EFFECTIVE cannon fire would only be about 900 rounds/minute --much less than the aggregate rifle fires discussed above. There are indications that the huge 32-lb cannon in Battery 4 was involved but it would only have added an additional 225 rounds/minute due to the need to use Heavy canister shot (3.5 oz) due to the range (>400 yards). Analysis of manning and batteries indicate that Jackson's right flank (Batteries 1-3) had significantly more powerful cannon (three 24 lb, two 12lb) --yielding aggregate fire of 1360 rounds /minute over only 140 yards or 10 rds/minute per yard of frontage. versus the 4 rounds/minute per yard of Battery 5-7. Plus Battery1 was supported by crossfire from the battery on West Bank of Mississippi. To compensate, Batteries 5-7 had a higher density of riflemen assigned (5.5 riflemen/yard vs the 3 men/yard of Batteries 1-3. ) Bottom Line: Bellesiles and John Williams Ward's opinion that cannon carried the day was wrong -- it was both cannon and riflemen --and the riflemen made the larger contribution. As I recall, John William Ward snipes that the artillery batteries were manned by regular Army men, regular Navy men , or by the Baratarian pirates. However, Remini indicates that Battery 6 near the main attack was manned by the New Orleans Creoles led by Louisiana legislator Flaujeac Garrigues. It's depressing to consider that John William Ward's 1955 account with it's errors survived to be re-promulgated by Bellesiles 45 years later --and that college undergraduates will probably be reading Bellesiles' Arming America 45 year years hence --even if it's errors are revealed to the public this year. Due to lax review by the professional history community, it's too late to recover all those library purchases -- Arming America is buried in the shelves. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.215.249 Mon Jan 28 19:48:50 2002 EST Comments: CORRECTION TO POST 22: In post 22 below , I said: "Note that General Coffee commanded the Tennessee militia and Carroll was in overall command of Coffee's unit plus Kentuckian riflemen under Adair ..." This requires clarification. Remini states on page 124 that General Carroll commanded Tennessee militia plus a number of Kentuckians (from Adair--page 138)--for a total of 1600 men spread out over about 290 yards from artillery Battery 5 to Battery 8. General Coffee had a separate battle command --between 800-1200 Tennessee militia, located to the left of Carroll (i.e., left of battery 8) and defending Jackson's left flank for several hundred yards into the swamp --i.e., the swamp which laid to the left of the line formed by Jackson's artillery Batteries 1-8. The 1600 men under General Carroll took the brunt of the British main attack but Jackson's account indicate that Coffee's men were also involved --probably by firing on the British right flank from the swamp, although Coffee's men also blocked an attempted flanking movement by a West Indian unit (Remini,p. 148) Earlier, when Jackson was made a Regular Army general, Carroll succeeded Jackson as major general of the Tennessee militia. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.215.249 Mon Jan 28 18:22:18 2002 EST Comments: NOTE Veritas msg directly below at Mon Jan 28 13:58:03 2002 EST " The Chronicle of Higher Education" is inviting comments on Bellesiles's pitiful attempt to rewrite history... http://chronicle.com/colloquy/2002/guns/guns.htm " Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.211.225 Mon Jan 28 15:56:04 2002 EST Comments: POST 22 On page 258 Bellesiles continues with what appears to be the main theme of Arming America --that the citizen militia of early America was almost always a miserable failure. By implication, the image of the American militia held by most people is a myth and so is the NRA's concept of the Second Amendment. At this point Bellesiles attacks the "myth" associated with the Battle of New Orleans: "The classic vision is of frontier riflemen mowing down British Regulars with brilliant marksmanship. But as in the Revolution, there is little evidence of such skill in the handling of firearms ...Cannon, not firearms, won the Battle of New Orleans. The myth, and the old song, give all credit to the Kentucky riflemen. Every military historian knows, as John Ward so concisely put it, that 'it can be flatly asserted that Jackson's overwhelming victory can in no way be attributed to the sharpshooting skill of the American frontiersman.' ...But the myth of Kentucky riflemen picking which eye of British officers to shoot out fulfilled some deep national yearning. " It's interesting that this "myth" seems to have been held by Andrew Jackson and the major American military commanders at the Battle of New Orleans. General Coffee, whose Tennessee militiamen were near the British main attack, said: "Before they reached our small arms, our grape and canister mowed down whole columns, but that was nothing to the carnage of our Rifles and muskets." (Source: Remini, "The Battle of New Orleans", page 148). There is a community service organization, called National Exchange Club, which provides copies of 30 major American political documents to schools (see http://www.freedomshrine.com/page3.html) . One of those documents is Jackson's description of the major battle at New Orleans on January 8: "I cannot speak sufficiently in praise of the firmness & deliberation with which my whole line received their approach:-more could not have been expected from veterans, inured to war. For an hour the fire of the small arms was as incessant & severe as can be imagined. The artillery too, directed by officers who displayed equal skill & courage did great execution- Yet the columns of the enemy continued to advance with a firmness which reflects upon them the greatest credit. Twice the column which approached me on my left was repulsed by the troops of genl. Carrole - those of genl. Coffee, & a division of the Kentucky Militia, & twice they formed again & renewed the assault. At length however, cut to pieces, they fled in confusion from the feild, leaving it covered with their dead & wounded. The loss which the enemy sustained on this occasion cannot be estimated at less than 1500 in killed wounded & prisoners- " Note that General Coffee commanded the Tennessee militia and Carroll was in overall command of Coffee's unit plus Kentuckian riflemen under Adair. Andrew Jackson's account seems to support the myth --not Bellesiles. How can that be? It's interesting that Bellesiles account of the Battle of New Orleans seems based solely on John Williams Ward's 1955 book "Andrew Jackson: Symbol for An Age". (His other citations -- of early newspaper accounts --seem to be taken from Ward's book.) For one thing, the Battle of New Orleans is a small part (pages 16-27) of Ward's book. Moreover, Ward's book is not really history --it is an early essay in American Studies --the study of our culture. Ward notes that he did not investigate the Battle deeply since the work had already been done by others ---he is recounting the Battle mainly to examine how the myth of the frontier sharpshooter developed. This is part of his overall attempt to examine how Jackson became a "symbol" of American values in the early 1800s. At this point, real historians may be smirking. The foremost historian on Andrew Jackson, Robert Remini, wrote an in-depth study --"The Battle of New Orleans" -- in 1999 and it's interesting to compare his account of the Battle with Ward's. "Cultural historian" Ward sees some mass psychological process at work in accounting for why the "myth" of New Orleans does not include the heroic efforts of the regular soldiers, free Blacks, and New Orleans Creoles who made up a significant part of Jackson's army. Mr. Remini, with his historian's narrowminded focus on simply determining what happened, notes that those units "hardly fired a shot" because they were deployed in the middle of Jackson's line (from Batteries 3 to 5) and the British did not attack there(page 155). The British made a feint at Battery 1 (140 yards to the right) and were easily repelled by the two brass 12-lb cannons plus the 3 massive 24-lb cannons of Batteries 2-3. The British main "human wave" attack occurred on Battery 7 located 225 yards to the left --defended by General Carroll's 1,600 Tennessee and Kentuckian riflemen. Given this information, maybe we could apply Ward's methodology and conclude the that attack on Battery 7 was a joint Anglo-Saxon conspiracy between the British and Kentuckians, designed to deny the Creoles and free Blacks their share of the credit. Ward concludes (assumes?) that the riflemen must have been ineffective because they could not see to aim-- due to cannon smoke. Robert Leckie in "The Wars of America" states that Jackson ordered the two left batteries ( 7 & 8?) to stop firing so that the riflemen could see (no citation given). Remini (page 143) notes that there was a "slight breeze" which caused British flags to flap. In his text, Ward sneers at the marksmanship of Coffee's Tennessee militia, noting that they lost a markmanship contest to Captain Beale's unit subsequent to the battle. Ward describes Beales' unit as consisting of the "leading merchants and professional characters" of New Orleans. Bellesiles repeats Ward's account and notes "Contrary to one of the most cherished fictions in American culture, simply living on the frontier did not make one an excellent shot." Ward and Bellesile's logic -- that losing to Beales' unit indicates that the Tennessee militia were bad shots --is flawed. In modern times, civilian marksmen compete against the US military's top shots at the Camp Perry annual matches -- who wins varies from year to year --but all contestants are superb marksmen. Remini notes that Beales unit had the most expert markmen of New Orleans. Wealthy merchants could buy the best guns and could afford the time and amno for practice. In 1815, New Orleans was a city of roughly 25,000 people surrounded by hundreds of miles of wilderness and with rural plantations spread for miles up and down the Mississippi. Unlike the urban residents of Amherst College and Emory University, the residents of 1815 New Orleans probably had not developed a gun phobia. It's really not clear why Bellesiles did not look at several military histories of the Battle of New Orleans before reaching his judgments. Unless one assumes that Bellesiles wanted a politically correct history and Ward's badly flawed sociological musings, written in the 1950s, was the best he could find. Military histories, like the US Army's "American Military History" ( http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-06.htm , page 145 near bottom )indicate that the Battle of New Orleans was won by both riflemen and cannon -- I will explain why in a subsequent post. Of course, Bellesiles should have gone to the primary sources -- battle accounts like those of Coffee and Jackson above. Name: veritas - 66.170.161.115 Mon Jan 28 13:58:03 2002 EST Comments: The Chronicle of Higher Education" is inviting comments on Bellesiles's pitiful attempt to rewrite history... http://chronicle.com/colloquy/2002/guns/guns.htm Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.211.92 Mon Jan 28 0:51:07 2002 EST Comments: POST 21 Bellesiles' criticism of the US militia performance in the burning of Washington DC in 1814 leaves out some important information: When the British expeditionary force continued on toward Baltimore, it was sounded defeated by the same militia and its leader, General Ross was killed. The US Army's "American Military History" discusses the War of 1812 at http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-06.htm and concludes: "The militia performed as well as the Regular Army. The defeats and humiliations of the Regular forces during the first years of the war matched those of the militia, just as in a later period the Kentucky volunteers at the Thames and the Maryland militia before Baltimore proved that the state citizen soldier could perform well. " Note how Bellesiles' indictment of the citizen militia in Chapter Seven of Arming America is not supported by the judgment of the US Army's Office of Military History.The premier general of the war was Andrew Jackson -who was commander of the Tennessee militia and was later made a major general in the Regular Army when he showed that he, unlike some Regular officers, could win battles. In my opinion, Bellesiles deliberately presents the citizen militia in a very false light --and distorts history -- in a continual biased attack on the idea of a citizen militia. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.211.92 Mon Jan 28 0:43:02 2002 EST Comments: POST 20 On pages 252-261 of Arming America, Bellesiles continues his long indictment of the citizen militia concept by arguing that the poorly armed militia of 1812 was a threat to national security. Some quotes of Bellesiles: (a) "the United States entered the War of 1812 grotesquely unprepared for a sustained conflict" (p.252) (b) "The concerns of the War Department were well founded, for when the British did attack Washington DC in August 1814 the militia crumbled ...It was a sorry show, as smoke rose from the burning White House, and British sailors cavorted in the Capitol"(p. 255) (c) "Matters were no better with frontier militia units, which also lacked arms and experience with their use" (p. 256) (d) "One could go on and on with examples of inept, poorly armed ,and horribly disciplined militia almost losing the War of 1812 for the United States." (p.257) (e) "The War of 1812 indicated, with an accuracy that terrified the country's political elite, that most Americans did not own guns, did not know how to use guns, and did not particularly care if they ever carried a gun for any purpose." (p.261)(Bellesiles also discusses the myth of the militia in the Battle of New Orleans, which I will treat in a separate post. ) Bellesiles' discussion is very misleading to readers (US voters) who have not studied the War of 1812. The War of 1812 was a clumsy effort done for poorly conceived objectives. The causes for the war were (1) Britain did not want US merchant ships docking in French ports and selling supplies to Napoleon's France. (2) With a strong wartime need for sailors, the British Navy had stopped some US ships and forcibly seized sailors who the Navy judged to be British deserters (3) US settlers in the Midwest and South believed Britain was encouraging Indian attacks - plus some political leaders wanted to seize Canada. The declaration of War was encouraged by politicians in the South and Midwest - it was strongly opposed by the New England states who considered seceding from the US over the damage to their foreign trade (Hartford Convention). The Congressional vote for war did not have a large majority in either house and was called Mr. Madison's War in New England. The security of the US was never at stake in the War of 1812. England could only support roughly 30,000 troops in North America when she made a desperate attempt to keep her colonies in 1780 -she was not much better off in 1812 while fighting with Napoleon. In 1776, US population was roughly 2.5 million - by 1810, it had grown to 6.8 million. There was no way that Britain could conquer the US -the British military goals were to (1) blockade US (2) Come down Hudson to see if she could split off New England (3) Plunder the rich city of New Orleans. The US goal was to acquire Canada. End result: US invasions of Canada failed -in part because of the lack of Support in the New England basing areas and partly because of Canadian resistance. British foray into US from Canada failed. Andrew Jackson badly bloodied British troops at New Orleans and exterminated a sizable portion of the Creek Indian Nation. Britain blockaded US but US privateers acquired lots of loot in Europe. End result: US and UK decide to stop the fight and accept the status quo that existed prior to the war. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.211.92 Mon Jan 28 0:30:47 2002 EST Comments: POST 19 In Chapter Seven, subsection "A Proper Defense" (page 219), Bellesiles appears to suggest that the militia were unsatisfactory in protecting the country from insurrection (Shay's Rebellion and Whiskey Rebellion.) In my opinion, the militia showed one of their greatest advantages - that they are a poor instrument for oppression of their fellow citizens. The Continental Congress had destroyed the country's economy by printing too much money and by stupid political bickering. In Shay's Rebellion, bankers in Boston were using their influence with the Massachusetts legislation to oppress the poor farmers of western Massachusetts --throwing people into prison for their debts in the midst of a depression. In the Whiskey Rebellion, farmers were protesting new taxes being laid under bad economic conditions. The empathy that the militia felt for their fellow citizens is to their credit, not discredit as Bellesiles seems to imply. On page 239, Bellesiles says "a largely unarmed United States faced an angry world in 1808" --yet he says on page 241 that an 1803 census listed 235,831 firearms. He notes that this "was enough guns for 45 percent of the militia." Bellesiles' suggestion that the militia was a poor defense for the country because it was inadequately armed circa 1800-1812 is wrong. The UK could only afford to support roughly 30,000 troops in North America even when she was trying to keep the Colonies in 1780. In the major battle of 1815 at New Orleans, she mustered roughly 10,000 men. The US's 235,831 firearms were enough. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.211.92 Sun Jan 27 18:14:53 2002 EST Comments: POST 18 In Chapter Seven of Arming America, Bellesiles ends his discussion of the Second Amendment (subsection "The Constitution and Guns") by noting that some people called for universal ownership of guns and a universal militia. Bellesiles responds: But those with experience of the realities of government, war, and gun production knew that such visions were fantasies. The leaders of the new nation followed Washington's lead in calling for a standing army backed by a smaller, more organized, and better-armed militia." In my opinion, Bellesiles is deliberately misleading the reader at this point. As I noted in earlier Post 15 (Thu Jan 24 13:26:36 2002 EST ), Washington called for dependency on the Militia for national defense with a very small standing army and a more powerful Navy-- since we were separated from Europe by the Atlantic. Because of the Newburgh Conspiracy, most members of Congress agreed with Washington on the dangers of a Standing Army and supported use of the Militia. As a result, they passed the Militia Act of 1792, NOT The Standing Army Act of 1792. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.211.92 Sun Jan 27 17:57:40 2002 EST Comments: On page 216, Bellesiles briefly discusses concerns that Anti-Federalists had over the powers in the new Constitution; only to dismiss them: "The Anti-Federalists wanted both sides of the argument, that the federal government would both arm and fail to arm the militia" This is a misrepresentation. Anti-Federalists argued that the President could use the militia from one part of the country to invade and conquer a state. A valid concern --that's what Lincoln did during the Civil War. Note the wording of Lincoln's declaration of war on the Confederacy -- he calls on the Militia to suppress the Southern Insurrection -- probably because many of his "Regular Army" and "Regular Navy" officers were down with former Secretary of War Jefferson Davis, organizing the military of the Confederacy. The other concern of the Anti-Federalists was that the President could prepare a state for invasion by crippling it's militia --also a valid concern.Name: doug bloomquist - 4.47.124.88 Fri Jan 25 4:28:54 2002 EST Comments: Dear Readers: Kind of scary to consider what Emory University is using our tax and education dollars for - especially in view of recent tuition hikes. Please rest assured, Professor B is not the only one like this at Emory - as can be inferred by the silence of his colleagues on what is so obviously a sham work stemming from a political agenda. With his reputation ruined and his career damaged, Professor B is only notable now in that he was caught -but don't be surprised if he turns it around so he becomes some sort of acedemic martyr. Emory will eventually put words out - and say the problem has been addressed - don't bet on it. The way in which the Wealthy Liberal Elite (consider Johnny Taliban's parents) have taken control of the funds and resources at Emory and other schools is really what should be examined. Obviously people had guns in early American history - have your ever heard of the American Revolution? The Bill of Rights was not written to be subject to revision by the likes of Emory professors. If there was a backbone between them they would publicly disavow Professor B and his fraudulent work. Won't happen though, because they're part of the Wealthy Liberal Elite that is basically sucking off the cream from our nations' educational resources. Also, I love the picture of Professor B flying around, on our tax and education dollars, going to 30 places to read old records. Can you imagine the amounts of expense account chablis he must have drained before he was so dazed that he couldn't remember where he did his research. Believe me, you cannot possibly mistake San Francisco for East Point Georgia. And if you do, then I would have serious doubts about Emory giving you tenure and the means to continue to suck off the tax and education dollars that are intended to further education, not defraud willing readers. All the Best, Doug Name: doug bloomquist - 4.47.124.88 Fri Jan 25 3:37:48 2002 EST Comments: Dear Professor: You might consider a more systematic and objective defense of your case against the critics of Arming America - perhaps in a tabular format such as Critic/Criticism/Response. I am pleased to read that Emory supervisors have given some guidence along these lines, and hope to see evidence that this advice is eventually taken more seriously. I agree with you about looking forward to the National Review articles. Please understand that it is legitimate that once a scholar is called upon to back up his findings, he should be forthcoming. Launching attacks on academic critics or Charlton Heston, however well-intended, is counter-productive and can be equated to obfusciation - even by an honest reader. Moreso, the non-objective attack model is often cited as one of the ways in which the purportedly more progressive spectrum of academia try to shape reality to fit their personal opinions and 'feelings', rather than the actual facts at hand. There is such a thing as black, and there is such a thing as white - consider the medical school at Emory versus the Liberal Arts College - diagnoses, treatments, and outcomes cannot be bent, as some critics say is taking place with facts and sources in the History Department. Whether or not an author has any particular bias, and I certainly don't think Arming America shows good evidence that it's author does not, it is critical to understand that the United States Bill of Rights is too crucial to our system of goverment be 'analysed' using dubious methodoligies such as tick marks on post-it notes. Obfusciation in this case is not the best course on which to to embark; please consider the candor and honesty with which your colleague Professor Ambrose has faced recent issues. All the best, Doug Bloomquist Name: Mike Reeves - 209.252.184.253 Thu Jan 24 21:42:18 2002 EST Comments: "Arming America aims to establish the broader historical context for our understanding of the role of guns in early America." When so much of "Arming America" has already been debunked, the question must arise as to why Bellesiles chose to ignore and fabricate so much of his source material. The only two plausible explanations are sloppy research or the desire to present a specific view of history. Applying Occam's Razor will give the benefit of the doubt to the professor in conducting research, leaving bias as the most likely explanation for his errors. It's a shame Bellesiles chose to write his book in such a poor fashion. An accurate historical picture of colonial firearm ownership could have been timely and thought provoking. Instead we are left with a work that is so full of inaccuracy it is virtually useless. Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.217.89 Thu Jan 24 15:42:44 2002 EST Comments: Note: The Federalist Papers are online at http://memory.loc.gov/const/fed/fedpapers.html . Madison's Federalist 46 , which I quoted in the previous Post, is at http://memory.loc.gov/const/fed/fed_46.html . Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.218.108 Thu Jan 24 13:43:25 2002 EST Comments: POST 16 On page 217-218 of Arming America, Bellesiles gives several quotes from James Madison (author of the Constitution and Amendments 1-10 (Bill of Rights) ) to suggest that the Militia was intended to enforce federal power over the populace. What Bellesiles does NOT provide his readers is the following quote from Madison's Federalist No. 46: "Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it. " Note how Madison noted, as a matter of course, that the general populace would possess more than enough firearms to defend themselves -- I guess he didn't have Bellesiles there to tell him that the people didn't own firearms. Note also that James Madison wrote the Second Amendment to ensure that the Militia (the People) would have the right to own firearms. The leaders of a coup might seize militia armories -- they could never disarm the general populace of their unregistered firearms. The same is true today -- National Guard armories can be seized and National Guard units can be imprisoned -- but 270 million Americans with 200 million unregistered firearms are the ultimate safeguard of our Congress, our Supreme Court, our State Governments, and our Constitution. Something that academic girley boys like Bellesiles and Garry Wills could never conceive. The Militia is well-regulated -- someone who misuses a firearm can be charged under multiple criminal counts including murder. And certainly Congress controls the Militia. What Congress can NOT do is disarm the Militia via gun-control measures -- just as it cannot scrap the other Bill of Rights: freedom of speech, press, assemble,etc. The reason is that to do so would endanger the Constitution and the existence of future Congresses. Yes, the State Governments regulated access to firearms in the early Republic. The Bill of Rights did not really become binding on the State Governments until after passage of the 14th Amendment. Part of the motivation behind Congress's passage of the 14th Amendment was to ensure that Southern blacks would have the Second Amendment right possess firearms in order to protect themselves. As liberal Akhil Amar (Professor, Yale Law) has noted, when guns are banned only the Klan will have guns. See the Amicus Curiae filed by the Congress of Racial Equality in US vs Emerson -- a copy is at http://www.potomac-inc.org/emercore.html . Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.218.108 Thu Jan 24 13:26:36 2002 EST Comments: POST 15 In Chapter 7 of Arming America, Bellesiles makes the following account: (a)"The early national period witnessed a tension between federal efforts to arm white male Americans and elite fears that poor whites might put such weapons to an incorrect, class-based one... Nationalists found ample justification for their fears in Shay's Rebellion." (Page 210). (b) "Shay's Rebellion was one of several key factors responsible for the calling of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. To those favoring a stronger national government, the Revolution had clearly demonstated the flaws in the militia when faced with a foreign invader, while the insurrection in Massachusetts indicated the unreliability of the militia when confronted with internal disorder." (page 212 ) (c) "Madison had his way, as article I, section 8, of the Constitution granted Congress the authority to call 'forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions.' Some modern observers argue that the framers perceived the militia as a check on governmental power; yet the Constitution accomplishes the exact opposite, making the militia a potential tool of the central government for the repression of any challenge to federal authority." (page 213) ************************** Bellesiles' account has an interesting black hole --something left unmentioned -- which suggests that the fear of "poor whites" with firearms exists among some people today -- maybe even among cloistered academicians. There was a THIRD threat to the country and Congress -- it's own armed forces. And Congress knew from personal experience that this third threat was the most potent. It's curious that Bellesiles makes no mention of the Newburgh Conspiracy of 1783 -- in which the officer corp of the Continental Army was on the verge of overthrowing Congress in a military coup. This coup was only stopped by a last minute appeal from George Washington. See the description of the Conspiracy in the opening paragraphs of the following Air Force document: http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/wester.html . I cite this reference because it also describes some modern-day strains on civilian control of the military. The Conspiracy is also described at http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/fall97/wshngton.html and in the US Army's American Military History at http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-05.htm . The Newburgh Conspiracy scared the hell out of Congress. 5 years of full pay was awarded to discharged officers and by late 1784 Congress had reduced the Continental Army to 80 artillerymen retained to guard military stores at West Point and Fort Pitt. The US Army's American Military History (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-05.htm ,page 102 ) describes why Congress and George Washington favored the militia over a standing army: "Its reluctance to create a standing army was understandable; a permanent army would be a heavy expense, and it would complicate the struggle between those who wanted a strong national government and those who preferred the existing loose federation of states. Further, the recent threats of the Continental officers strengthened the popular fear that a standing army might be used to coerce the states or become an instrument of despotism. General Washington, to whom Hamilton's committee turned first for advice, echoed the prevailing view. He pointed out that a large standing army in time of peace had always been considered "dangerous to the liberties of a country" and that the nation was "too poor to maintain a standing army adequate to our defense." The question might also be considered, he continued, whether any surplus funds that became available should not better be applied to "building and equipping a Navy without which, in case of War we could neither protect our Commerce, nor yield that assistance to each other which, on such an extent of seacoast, our mutual safety would require." He believed that America should rely ultimately on an improved version of the historic citizens' militia, a force enrolling all males between 18 and 50 liable for service to the nation in emergencies. He also recommended a volunteer militia, recruited in units, periodically trained, and subject to United States rather than state control. At the same time Washington did suggest the creation of a small Regular Army "to awe the Indians, protect our Trade, prevent the encroachment of our Neighbors of Canada and the Floridas, and guard us at least from surprises; also for security of our magazines." .."When Congress looked at Shay's Rebellion, it saw that a lot of Shay's followers were former member of the Continental Army. What Bellesiles does not mention is that Congress's power to call out the Militia to suppress Insurrections includes the power to suppress Insurrections WITHIN THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND MILITARY FORCES. The Executive Branch controls the federal military -- Congress and the Supreme Court are vulnerable if the President and part of the military ignores the Constitution. The Constitution explicitly notes this possibility -- Article I gives Congress the power to impeach/remove the President and all civil officers of the United States and Article II notes this can be done for " Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. ". Elsewhere in the Constitution, Treason is defined as "waging war on the United States." Obviously, the only way the President can wage war on the United States is in his role a commander of federal military forces. What protects the Congress if the President and leaders of a military coup ignore impeachment? The Militia. Per the Constitution, the Congress controls who commands the Militia -- it is the State Governors unless Congress gives command to the President. In the event of an attempted coup by the President and federal military, the State Governors would protect the Congress and the Supreme Court. After Congress convicts and removes the President and Vice-President, command of the federal military would pass to the new President -- either Congress's Speaker of the House or the Senate's President Pro Tem. And the State Militias would enforce this. Gun control advocates argue that the Militia is the National Guard. This is wrong. The Militia includes the National Guard, but it's major component is civilian males. By law ( US Code, Title 10, Chapter 13, Sec 311,). the Militia is all able-bodied males 17-44 years of age who are not members of the federal military. See http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.html . The idea of a military coup is hard to imagine in today's United States. It will be less hard to imagine if the US ever falls into a deep depression like the one people endured in the 1780s , when the US economy collapsed because Congress printed too much money to finance the Revolutionary War and the currency became worthless. Similar circumstances (worthless currency, loss of life savings, high unemployment ,debt) is what helped Hitler and the Nazis overthrow the Weimar Republic in the Great Depression. I think it is indicative of Bellesiles's strong bias that he mentions none of the above to his readers. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.218.108 Thu Jan 24 11:13:18 2002 EST Comments: It's interesting that Bellesiles' speculation regarding ineffective American resistance to the British might actually be plausible for one area of the colonies: New York City and Philadelphia. While the people of Boston were indomitable, I recall no resistance to British occupations of New York City and Philadelphia. There were a fair number of Tories in those cities, of course. Merchants who remained loyal to King George because they depended on trade with England. Such men probably forced their political views on those dependent upon them for business -- artisans, workers, renters,etc. Possibly just like today, the wealthy class of those cities favored limits on gun ownership, so that the unwashed rabble --the urban poor-- could be kept under control. I wonder how well the policy of craven appeasement and disarmment worked? I wonder how the wealthy class of Philadelphia and New York City protected the virtue of their women when British troops --enlisted men at that -- were quartered in their homes during those long winter months? Name: Andy Frechtling - 63.175.89.152 Thu Jan 24 10:12:11 2002 EST Comments: Prof Bellesiles asserts that the longbow was a superior weapon to the firearms of the 1500's, (See The Great Debate, pg 22-30), and makes some assertions that are certainly questionable. I took up archery 30 years ago and can weigh in on at least a couple of issues where I believe Prof Bellesiles is wrong. Training requirements: To learn to use a 60-pound-plus stick bow effectively is both an exercise in coordination and strength. The muscles required to pull a bow must be developed and conditioned. To learn to aim a bow without bowsights (a modern invention) requires continuing practice and judgement of range. The muscular requirements for shooting a matchlock from a rest are nowhere near comparable. Aiming a long gun, at least within 30 yards, is fairly easy by comparison with aiming a bow. As a shotgunner, I know that I can reliably put a load of shot from an unrifled barrel into a man-sized target at that range, just by sighting down the top of the barrel plane. Which leads to the next issue: Accuracy: Professor Bellesiles claims that early firearms were only accurate out to 8 to 10 yards. I'm not sure that there are any extensive tests on original matchlocks that would enable us to confirm this, but I know from personal experience that a beginning archer would be challenged to hit a man at 10 yards. Most experienced bowhunters I know consider 25 yards about the maximum range for a modern recurve bowshot, using modern aluminum arrows, at a stationary deer. This criterion assumes that the objective is to reliably hit within an area about 10" across. (That's the so-called "pie-plate test" : you don't shoot at a deer at any range beyond which you can't reliably hit a pie plate.) The ranges Prof Bellesiles mentions for longbow fire (200-300 yards on pg 27) are for an essentially unaimed elevated bowshot, where the arrow will be on an almost vertical trajectory on the way down. Where exactly that arrow will hit is problematic -- and allowing for wind effects, probably much more problematic than even primitive musket fire at that range. The effectiveness of such long-range archery depends on getting a high rate of fire from hundreds of bowmen. Which brings us to the next issue: Rate of fire: Prof Bellesiles makes much of the slow rate of fire of the early muskets and this is certainly one area where the bow has an advantage. But he may be exaggerating a bit in the difference. I have witnessed modern shooters reloading flintlocks in less than 20 seconds, by using a premeasured powder charge, a precut patch, and by priming the flash pan directly from the powder horn. In that same time, an archer could get off several aimed shots, but with what degree of accuracy depends heavily on the archer and the range. Prof Bellesiles' handling of this issue is symptomatic of what I think carries his argument through much of the book: unsupported assertions about events and technology that are convincing to a lay reader who has never "been there, done that" with either a bow or a gun. Name: R. A. Bond - 208.63.171.106 Thu Jan 24 9:51:22 2002 EST Comments: Michael Bellesiles is a poor representation of historians in general, failing to take into account common-sense aspects of family gun ownership. My family (both sides) goes back far pre-revolution....even to the Mayflower in one case, and my male ancestors have ALWAYS had and used firearms. They were in almost all cases passed down to the oldest son pre-death, and were never part of any probate. My father did this for me, giving me a large collection of fine guns, many passed through the families, just prior to his recent death. Needless to say, none of this large collection appears on any record. I will do the same for my son. When I approach the end of my days, and he is the responsible adult that he is being trained to be, he will get the entire collection. Again, none will be probated. The moral of this is.... If you are a historian that has led a sheltered, urban life, and you wish to write on a subject involving the behavior of non-urban types (as the GREAT majority were, in those days, at least do a little talking to non-urban types around today to get insights into their customary practices and family traditions involving these types of items. They are looked at as a passage into manhood. Together with the "research" on non-existent data, the "context errors", and so forth, Bellesiles should be thoroughly discredited for this sorry misrepresentation of "history". R.A. Bond Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.213.121 Thu Jan 24 2:48:22 2002 EST Comments: POST 13 On page 178 of Arming America, Bellesiles says "It became almost a fad in the last year before the war to make outrageous claims of shooting prowess" and then cites as an example Richard Henry Lee's claim circa Feb 1775 that western Virginia could furnish six thousand 'Rifle Men that for their number make [the] most formidable light Infantry in the World'. Bellesiles then sneers "For some reason these six thousand marksmen did not materialize during the war". Well, actually, many of those riflemen did materialize. When British Officer Ferguson made threats to settlers in Tennessee, Kentucky, and southwestern Virginia, about 1,000 "OverMountain Men" (i.e., those on the other side of the Smoky Mountains from South Carolina) invaded South Carolina, trapped Ferguson and his Tory militia on King's Mountain,and destroyed them. The US Army's American Military History notes : "King's Mountain was as fatal to Cornwallis' plans as Bennington had been to those of Burgoyne. The North Carolina Tories, cowed by the fate of their compatriots, gave him lime [limited??] support. The British commander on October In 1780, began a wretched retreat in the rain back to Winnsboro, South Carolina, with militia harassing his progress. Clinton was forced to divert an expedition of 2,500 men sent to establish a base in Virginia to reinforce Cornwallis. " Source: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-04.htm ; page 91 I also wonder where all those riflemen at King's Mountain, all those armed militiamen under Colonel Pickens at Cowpens, and all those armed guerilla fighters under Francis Marion came from? Based on Bellesiles chapters on Colonial America, I thought few of the settlers had guns? Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.213.121 Thu Jan 24 2:45:43 2002 EST Comments: POST 12 Incidently, Bellesiles' citation of the Battle of Paoli on page 204 to suggest that the noble bayonet was the real weapon, not those dastardly guns, is highly misleading. He says: "Certainly the British victory at Long Island demonstrated the wisdom of that reliance [on the bayonet ] , as did the even more notorious battle at Paoli the following year, where the British attacked with muskets from which the flints had been removed, using their bayonets to decimate the Americans before they had a chance to load their weapons. ...British bayonet charges repeatedly stopped American attacks , and proved particularly terrifying to militia units. " This is rancid horseshit, of course -- but not likely to be detected by the many people reading Arming America who are not scholars of the Revolutionary War. The Massacre of Paoli WAS A NIGHT ATTACK and the musket flints were removed so that some clumsy oaf wouldn't accidently fire his musket and awaken the Anthony Wayne's soldiers who were sleeping by their campfires. The American soldiers not only did not have time to load their weapons-- some did not have time to cast off their blankets. Kinda gives the readers a different view, no? In my opinion, this paragraph is a good example of what I've came to see as the "Bellesiles paradigm " --withhold major, relevant information in order to mislead the naive with a false impression and thereby convince them of your argument. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.213.121 Thu Jan 24 2:42:03 2002 EST Comments: POST 11 In Chapter 5 "Brown Bess in the Wilderness" ,as well as in earlier chapters, Bellesiles appears to argue that the general populace's lack of support for colonial militia indicates that they possessed few firearms. In my opinion, what it suggests is that the Colonists had better things to do than play soldier, in the absence of a threats. A few sporadic Indian attacks were unlikely to motivate the majority of settlers who lived closer to the seaboard. Somehow, those laughable, incompetent unwarlike Colonists managed to defeat Indians, French soldiers, British regulars, and a large populace of black slaves. I think Bellesiles fails to realize there are alternative explanations for the snapshot anecdotes he trots out. Obviously, communities tended to put forward young, unmarried, poor laborors when a militia was called up for service outside a community. Established , married farmers would want to stay home to protect their family and property -- and they would have wanted to keep their firearms to do so. And firearms owners would have been unlikely to turn their personal arms over to the government in a time of danger -- just look at the modern-day run on gun sales after the September 11 terrorist attacks. And the impovished workers put forward for the militia draft would most likely reported without a firearm --in hope government would supply them with one which they could later keep as a bonus. Some of Bellesiles arguments seem inconsistent. On page 188, Bellesiles suggests colonial militias were poorly prepared in 1776 because they were making pikes since blacksmiths could make pikes but many could not make good firearms. Yet he later argues on page 204 that the bayonet was the decisive weapon for the British -- that they would fire one volley at close range (e.g., 50 yards) and then charge with the bayonet. If that was the case, then what was wrong with colonial militia taking advantage of their manpower advantage and giving pikes to men without firearms.? A militiaman with a little training and a pike could standup to a British regular charging with a bayonet and could protect a rifleman. I was also bewildered by Bellesiles anecdote on page 182 that even militias who had firearms had shortages of necessary equipment. He notes that "the seventy-two men of the Charlestown, New Hampshire militia owned thirty guns of various kinds, but only ten ramrods, an absolute necessity for loading a musket". Huh? Couldn't the colonists, who make their own homes and furniture, whittle out 20 ramrods -- which are basically 3 foot sticks??? Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.213.121 Thu Jan 24 2:37:39 2002 EST Comments: POST 10 On page 103 of Arming America, Bellesiles wonders off into hilarious speculation about how American settlers fed themselves in the 1700s. He says "After all, one of the most popular and persistent visions of the American past is that every settler owned a gun in order to hunt...This is a very strange perception. Hunting is and always has been a time-consuming and inefficient way of putting food on the table. People settling a new territory have little time ... To head off into the woods for two days in order to drag the carcass of a deer back to his family-- assuming that he was lucky enough to find one, not to mention kill it -- would have struck any American of the Colonial period as supreme lunacy". Bellesiles then goes on to suggest the settler would kill one of his farm animals -- a chicken or hog. Bellesiles point appears to be that a settler did not need a firearms and hence he was unlikely to own one. Actually, what I think this suggests is that urban professors of history know little about rural self-sufficiency. Tocqueville's account of the canonical settler's farm even as late as 1834 makes it clear that the settler was little above the Indian hunter-gatherer stage for the first several years. (See http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/ap_u.htm ) In year one, trees were killed by girding the bark and corn,beans,squash etc. were planted among the forest of dead trees, since the leaves had fallen and sunlight could penetrate. In year two, the settler might try to cut down and burn some of the trees, but the job would be incomplete , with crops planted among the fallen tree trunks as Tocqueville indicates. It might be a decade before the settler had a cleared farm which could support enough grain to feed a mule or horse and which had been cleared of tree stumps that obstruct plowing. The diet of grains (corn, wheat) and legumes (beans) would need at least some meat to provide certain proteins. Plus, total dependence on farms crops would lead to starvation of the family in the event of drought, insects,blights,etc. And crops were available of course only after harvest, usually in the fall. In such conditions, a 400 lb deer which could provide a family of four with maybe 80 meals would be a godsend especially since the meat could be saved as venison or salted. Having a flintlock rifle which could kill deer would be a necessary insurance policy, . Contrary to Bellesiles' description, It would not be necessary to travel for two days, risk an unsuccessful hunt, and drag the deer back home. The forest clearings that the settler made would attract nearby deer who would come to feed on the resulting tree saplings, brush, and farmer crops. This would be especially likely if the settler was located near a stream -- which most were in order to have access to water. (Even those who dug wells wanted to be near a high water table in order hit water 10-15 feet down.) Farmers preferred bottomland near a stream that would be flooded in the spring so that the soil would be replenished --corn rapidly depletes the soil. (Those who suggest spreading manure fail to realize that several acres would be needed to feed a plowhorse -- with the resulting labor burden of plowing and cultivating grain for the horse. ) The more affluent or established settler who owned a plow horse or mule could ride farther afield to hunt, if need be. I live in the suburbs of a major city and I have a herd of deer come into my yard every night, especially in the wintertime when foliage is sparse. I can approach to within 40 yards of the deer --easily prey with a firearm. Bellesiles suggestion on page 29 that bows are comparable to --or even superior to -- flintlocks can be easily discarded by anyone who has ever tried to shoot a primitive bow -- it took years of practice to develop the shoulder muscles and skills of a Welsh longbowman --most people would find they could not hit a deer beyond 10 yards with a bow --whereas they could hit a deer out to 40 yards with a musket --even farther with a rifle. The Indians discarded bows and bought flintlock muskets -- not the reverse. The settler would have needed a rifle to kill deer just to prevent them from eating his crops -- any farmer of today will tell you how deer are impossible to fence out and how they can destroy a corn patch. Plus the settler would have needed to kill predators --foxes, wolves, cougars -- that threatened his domestic animals. Finally, a settler in an isolated rural setting would have wanted a firearm for protection of his family -- locking yourself in a log cabin and firing out a porthole is a perfect defense strategy when the nearest constable is 50 miles away. On page 106 , Bellesiles suggests gun ownership would have been low in Colonial America because "a gun represented the equivalent of two months wages ". So what? Even today, many rural men have gun collections with a value greater than two months wages --and they do not have as pressing a need for a gun as did colonial settlers. Two months wages is a low price for a tool which will last a lifetime. Finally, I'm skeptical of Bellesiles speculation that guns had to be imported. The book Foxfire 5 describes how Southern mountaineers built flintlock rifles. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.213.121 Thu Jan 24 2:35:03 2002 EST Comments: POST 9 In Chapter Two of Arming America , titled "The Role of Guns in the Conquest of North America", Bellesiles seems to be trying to convince the reader that guns in the 1700s were of limited value. On page 43, he states "The famous Kentucky rifle took, on average, three minutes to load." Bellesiles goes on to say "most of those familiar with guns agreed that it was useless to aim at any target beyond twenty yards with any expectation of hitting it." (I assume that in the latter sentence, he was talking about muskets,not rifles, but he is not clear. By contrast, Lawrence Babits notes in "A Devil of a Whipping" that (a) "Experienced RIFLEMEN could fire one shot every FIFTEEN SECONDS on a good day"(page 14) (NOT every 3 minutes as Bellesiles said) and (b) the musket could hit a man out to 80 yards in 5 out of 6 shots fired within one minute (page 13). Babits's footnote indicates that he personally verified that (b) could be done by doing it himself. He notes that the common practice of loading buckshot with the musket ball would increase the hit probability. Babits also quotes British Colonel Hanger, who lived in 1776, as saying: "An expert rifleman ...can hit the head of a man at 200 yards. I am certain, that, provided an American rifleman were to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me, standing still, he most undoubtedly would hit me, unless it was a very windy day." (page 14) Babits does express some skepticism about this and I would concur --given blackpowder velocities, bullets start dropping several feet below line of sight at around 150 yards. The essential factor in accuracy is whether the range is accurately known (i.e. is paced off ) or whether it has to be visually estimated. I would guess that defenders who had time to pace off and mark distances could hit men out to 200 yards by adjusting for known bullet drop. I would guess that men on the traveling offense , firing at estimated ranges, might only be able to hit a man out to 125 yards. In any event, musket and rifle were far more deadly than I think Bellesiles suggests. Name: Sean Salai - 161.32.234.39 Thu Jan 24 0:36:42 2002 EST Comments: Mr. Bellesiles writes that "the real test before our profession, it seems to me, is our ability to address an issue of contemporary concern in a scholarly fashion without evoking relentless denunciation and severe passions." As an undergraduate history major, and a political conservative, I couldn't agree more. I am not writing to denounce anyone's character. But Mr. Bellesiles himself has committed academic sins that run completely contrary to any responsible notion of academic freedom. His fraudulent research is clearly at least partially responsible for provoking the ongoing reaction against him, which is not limited to his political opponents (see today's Chicago Tribune). All accusations of dishonesty aside, Mr. Bellesiles is clearly guilty of scholarly incompetence. Until he acknowledges this fact, he is rather disengenuously playing the victim of an inquisition that only his lack of rigorous scholarship has enabled to grow. Whether through political motivations or shockingly poor standards of sholarship, he has done this profession and the Academy in general a great disservice and should resign his position immediately. What happens to the historian's credibility when one arrogant professor falsifies widely hailed research and presents as his most compelling excuse that the dog ate his homework? This is not an issue of political witch-hunting, but of academic responsibility. salais@wabash.edu Name: veritas - 66.170.162.12 Thu Jan 24 0:25:37 2002 EST Comments: How odd. Recent media references cited with articles attacking "Disarming America" include the New York Times, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune and many others. Yet there's been NO cited recent reference in favor of this book. Perhaps even the liberals know when they have stepped in it, big time. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.213.59 Wed Jan 23 13:58:37 2002 EST Comments: On Emory Univerity's web site, there's an interesting article in Emory's "Academic Exchange" regarding the criticism of Bellesiles' Arming America. The article includes the following rather fatuous quote from Mr. Bellesiles: ---------------------------------------- Bellesiles is more wary than ever of public debate about his work. "I think the only place this kind of conversation could go on is in scholarly journals, and there it's not really a conversation", he told theAcademic Exchange; "It's more a long-term dialogue." Nonetheless, he writes to his OAH colleagues, "The real test before our profession, it seems to me, is our ability to address an issue of contemporary concern in a scholarly fashion without evoking relentless denunciation and severe passions." Source: http://www.emory.edu/ACAD_EXCHANGE/2002/decjan/silenced.html ------------------------------------------------------------ Well, let's see what's Michael's idea of scholarly discourse. He puts up his letter here on the OAH site. By my reading, his letter appears to be mainly an attempt to suggest his critics are violent, right-wing loons. However, when readers of his letter and book post their criticisms here, he remains silent. Here, Michael, Michael. Are you lying out there in the weeds, quivering and hoping that the hounds will go away? After all, another possible viewpoint of this debate, Michael, is that gun control advocates are trying to put gun owners in prison for exercising a clearly defined Constitutional right. Gun control advocates are trying to undermine a basic constitutional check on the power of the Executive Branch. Michael, you proclaim in your letter here that: "Arming America does not, to my knowledge, support any contemporary political position. Nor am I, as is often charged on the web, paid by any major gun-control group, political party, or secret conspiratorial organization. " In my opinion, your facade of academic objectivity is hilarious. For example, what about the "Second Amendment Symposium" in February 2000? ( http://www.gunlawsuits.org/defend/second/symposium/symposium.asp ) A quote from their transcripts: "On February 16, 2000, the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence hosted a distinguished group of historians at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., to challenge the gun lobby's on-going campaign of misinformation about the Second Amendment.." When I look at their list of 4 historians I see ...why, it's you, Michael!! Why did a partisan anti-gun group with an ax to grind invite an "objective academican" like yourself? Or did you just wander in by mistake? Did they pay you anything or was your talk strictly pro bono ? Maybe you could have Emory University provide a link to the Second Amendment Symposium web site cited above in Emory's Academic Exchange page -- so that your student could gape in awe at your scholarly impartiality? Name: veritas - 66.170.162.16 Wed Jan 23 12:35:34 2002 EST Comments: Chicago Tribune, 01/23/02, “Wormy apples from the groves of Academe” QUOTE: Eventually, both sides -- Bellesiles and his detractors -- asked Randolph Roth, an Ohio State University professor, to endorse their side of the argument. Roth's specialty is the history of Vermont, and Bellesiles said he had acquired part of his data by examining Vermont's probate records to see how frequently guns show up in inventories of estates. "I offered Bellesiles to go to Vermont and check his data," said Roth, adding that he got a thanks-but-no-thanks response. His interest piqued, Roth decided to check those records anyway, and he compared what Bellesiles' book claimed was in those archives with what he himself found in the documents. "I came to the conclusion," Roth said, "that the number and scope of his errors were extraordinary." Bellesiles said that guns were present in only 14 percent of estates. Roth found them in 40 percent. James Lindgren, a Northwestern University law professor, was drawn to a note in Bellesiles' book reporting that he had used records from 19th Century San Francisco. Thinking to have his own students analyze those documents, he asked Bellesiles where they were. Bellesiles said he found them in the archives of the San Francisco Superior Court. "I called the San Francisco Superior Courthouse," Lindgren said, "and discovered that the complete runs of inventories he claims to have read there were destroyed in the 1906 earthquake and fire." Last week Bellesiles e-mailed colleagues that he finally remembers drawing his data, not from records in San Francisco but from those in the entirely different county of Contra Costa, records housed in the Contra Costa County Historical Society. Kathleen Mero, a longtime archivist there, says she and other staff members are quite familiar with the controversy surrounding Bellesiles' book. She says she doesn't remember Bellesiles doing research at the group's storefront archives. "If he had examined our records," Mero said, "he would have found guns all over the place." Bellesiles continues to have supporters. Yet their defense sometimes seems more of a left-handed compliment. Paul Finkleman, a law professor at the University of Tulsa, says Bellesiles' book remains an important contribution, despite its critics. "In the end," Finkleman said, "I don't think it matters if he cooked the data." Other former supporters have turned critics, among them Donald Hickey, a history professor at Wayne State College in Nebraska. Bellesiles previewed the thesis of his book in a scholarly article that he submitted to the Journal of American History. On receipt, the editor asked Hickey to "referee" it according to the time-honored process by which one scholar's work is evaluated by another. Hickey recommended its publication, saying it made a persuasive case that guns weren't widely owned in America's early days. Since then, Hickey has changed his view of Bellesiles' work. "It is a case," Hickey said, "of genuine, bona fide academic fraud." http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0201230024jan23.story Name: wgrendzinski@hotmail.com - 63.254.115.138 Wed Jan 23 11:23:19 2002 EST Comments: I'm curious to know if the gun pictured in your 1/20/02 AJC article is a 38 cal. Navy Colt and how can I find out the value of this gun and others similar to this one? Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.214.91 Tue Jan 22 13:55:00 2002 EST Comments: Note: I am the author of the preceding POST 7 regarding the Battle of Charleston in the Revolutionary War. Name: - 151.197.214.91 Tue Jan 22 13:53:15 2002 EST Comments: POST 7 On page 196 of Arming America , Bellesiles again sneers at the American militia, noting how their flight at the Battle of Camden allowed DeKalb's Continentals to be overwhelmed. Certainly, Camden was not the militias' finest hour, although the leadership of General Horatio Gates bears some study. Bellesiles discussion shows how he cherry-picks historical information to support his biased indictment of the militias. Bellesiles doesn't mention that by the time Camden occurred , DeKalb's Continentals were a small remnant of the southern Continental Army. What Bellesiles doesn't mention is that the real disaster had occurred earlier, at the Battle of Charleston, where Continental General Lincoln succumbed to political pressure from the South Carolina government and chose to defend Charleston --an Atlantic seaport where the full power of the British Navy could be brought to bear. The US Army's "American Military History" discusses the battle: "With d'Estaing's withdrawal the British regained control of the sea along the American coast, giving Clinton a mobility that Washington could not match. While Clinton drew forces from New York and Savannah to achieve a decisive concentration of force (14,000 men) at Charleston, Washington was able to send only piecemeal reinforcements to Lincoln over difficult overland routes. Applying the lessons of his experience in 1776, Clinton this time carefully planned a co-ordinated Army-Navy attack. First, he landed his force on John's Island to the south, then moved up to the Ashley River, investing Charleston from the land side. Lincoln, under strong pressure from the South Carolina authorities, concentrated his forces in a citadel defense on the neck of land between the Ashley and Cooper Rivers, leaving Fort Moultrie in the harbor lightly manned. On April 8 British warships successfully forced the passage past Moultrie, investing Charleston from the sea. The siege then proceeded in traditional eighteenth century fashion, and on May 12, 1780, Lincoln surrendered his entire force of 5,466 men, the greatest disaster to befall the American cause during the war. " Source: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-04.htm -- page down to middle of document at page 87 It was unfortunate that Lincoln let his army be captured in Charleston. Historian Lawrence Babits, in his book "A Devil of a Whipping--The Battle of Cowpens" has noted the strategic advantage Patriots in the interior of South Carolina had: Supplies could be floated down the rivers from the interior on boats and barges. Conversely, Cornwallis's supply problems increased the farther he got away from the coast because his supplies had to be brought up the Carolinian rivers since there were few roads through the Carolinian swamps on South Carolina's Coastal Plain. If Lincoln had moved his army into the interior, he could have easily penned Cornwallis's army up in Charleston by attacking supply shipments on the Ashley and Cooper rivers. Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.214.91 Tue Jan 22 11:51:55 2002 EST Comments: POST 6 In Chapter 6 "A People Numerous and Unarmed" of Arming America, Bellesiles dismisses the performance of American militia at Concord. He states: "But other militia units lined the road back to Boston. Neither side in this long battle fought very well. Occasionally a unit of the British would trap some Americans and charge with their bayonets; at other times some rebels got off an effective volley and then retreated into the woods. But for the most part the British retreat was just a constant barrage of individual shots from each side, most missing, but enough hitting to disorganize the British command. ..Yet as French's careful study of the casualties suffered by the British on their retreat from Concord demonstrates 'superior as they[Americans] may have been to the British, marksmen they were not.' A total of 3,763 Americans are know to have participated in this long day of battle...among them they hit 273 British. " Another reviewer, John G Fought, has already done an in-depth comparison of Bellesiles account with the 1994 study of the battle of Concord "Paul Revere's Ride" , done by historian David Hackett Fischer. Mr. Fought's review is at http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_bellesiles.html -- see the middle section entitled "American Militia and British Regulars in Combat, 1755 and 1775 ". After comparing Mr. Bellesiles' account with Fischer's detailed study, Mr. Fought concludes: "From Fischer's account, which agrees in all important respects with General Galvin's, we can see that Bellesiles has again stacked the cards, in order to show the militia not so much in a bad light as in a false one, as a rabble just barely in arms, when in fact they assembled and maneuvered capably, and drove the British regulars quite hard all the way from Concord to Charlestown, inflicting nearly three times as many casualties as they suffered, breaking their line of battle twice, bringing the whole body of the enemy to the brink of surrender twice, capturing troops and munitions, and, of course, starting the War of Independence. Somewhat to my surprise, I became quite angry as I read the three pages Bellesiles devotes to selectively misrepresenting the actions of the Massachusetts militia on that day. It was this reaction that stimulated me to write these pages. " After reading Fischer's book, I would agree with Mr. Fought. Mr. Bellesiles appears ignorant of military tactics. The British column was not a shooting gallery. The British army had a large number of skirmishers deployed 50 yards out from their column to protect their flanks. These skirmishers would try to attack and kill American militia creeping in for a shot. There was little cover for the militia in fields where fields laid on either side of the road. Point is, attacking the British column was a lot harder and dangerous than Bellesiles implies. Fischer's account shows the highly effective tactics used by the American militia --the moving ring around the British brigade, "dispersed tho' adhering" Bellesiles concludes his account of Concord with the observation "The myth of a universally armed militia of marksmen ...would take a terrible beating over the ensuing eight years." It's interesting that Bellesiles quotes from British general Lord Percy in several succeeding pages (p. 184 and 204) yet does not quote the following observation made about the American militia by Lord Percy after Concord: "Whoever looks on them as an irregular mob, will find himself very much mistaken. They have men amongst them who know very well what they are about, having been employed as rangers against the Indians and Canadians, and this country, being much covered with wood, and hilly, is very advantageous for their method of fighting." (Fischer 1994:254). Name: Thomas C. Martin - 152.163.201.178 Mon Jan 21 16:53:51 2002 EST Comments: I am 66 years old. Your method of determining gun ownership by counting guns in probate records is fundamentally flawed. My grandfather, father and uncles were gun owners and they all gave their guns to younger members of the family and to family friends well before their deaths. I too am preparing to pass the guns I own to my heirs before I die since I will have little use for them from here on. None of us will leave a probate record of gun ownership yet the number of guns involved is substantial. I can't believe a serious scholar could make this mistake. Could it be he is trying to make the figures bolster a predetermined result? Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.210.246 Mon Jan 21 15:07:04 2002 EST Comments: POST 5 Regarding Michael Bellesiles and his book "Arming America" , one can see his strong bias against the armed citizen in his description of the Revolutionary War battle of Cowpens (page 197): "The Battle of Cowpens in 1781 offered further evidence that it was still possible for the militia to fulfill their vaunted role. But that victory was the consequence of Daniel Morgan's careful planning in placing the militia in front of his Continental units, and his working out a deal with the militia whereby they agreed to fire a volley and then leave the field. Even then, Morgan repeatedly had to cajole and even beg the militia to keep their part of the bargain in the face of Banastre "Butcher" Tarleton's English forces, and most of the militia initially made to flee as soon as the English started to leave the field. It seemed as though the militia understood any movement as full-scale retreat, and Morgan and Colonel Andrew Pickens had to place themselves between the militia and their horses, waving their swords threateningly in order to keep them from turning victory into rout. The militia kept blundering around the field, convincing the British that the Americans were in flight. At that very moment when the British confidently charged, Morgan had Lieutenant Colonel John Howard's Continentals perform a perfect change of direction, fire a withering musket volley at ten yards, and then charge the British with fixed bayonets. Tarleton's forces collapsed before the American bayonets, and the militia, which had to fire only that single volley, managed to hold on to their guns this time. " **************************** Other historians give a much different account. See , for example, the US Army Military History at http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-04.htm (scroll down to "Greene's Southern Campaign"). See also the Cowpens Staff Ride monograph developed by Colonel Jerry D. Morelock (Combat Studies Institute of U.S. Army Command and General Staff College) at http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/CSIPUBS/Moncure/moncure.htm . See the National Park Service description of the Battle of Cowpens at http://www.nps.gov/cowp/batlcowp.htm. Finally, see Lawrence E. Babits' in-depth study of Cowpens in "A Devil of a Whipping: The Battle of Cowpens"(1998). All four of these sources give a consistent account which is much different from the biased one that Bellesiles gives above. Briefly, their account is as follows: 1) Morgan chose battlefield at Cowpens --an open area several hundred yards in width sloping upward to a broad hill. Forming up at the hill, Morgan laid out his lines as follows: Line number 1 was a skirmish line formed by sharpshooters (McDowell's North Caroline militia plus Hammond's South Carolina State Troops) tasked with picking off British officers. 150 yards back was Line 2, consisting of four battalions of South Carolina militia commanded by Colonel Pickens. Morgan ordered this line to fire two volleys and to then retreat to the rear of Line 3 in order to reconstitute (reload rifles) and form a reserve. 150 yards behind line 2 was Line number 3 -- regular Continental troops under command of Colonel Howard plus Virginia militia units under Major Triplett and Captain Tate. Hidden behind the hill to Morgan's rear was a troop of cavalry under Col. Washington. 2) As planned , Line 1 shoots Tarleton's officers during British advance and retreats to augment Line 2. As ordered by Morgan, the 4 South Carolina militia battalions on Line 2 fire 1-2 volleys each and retreat to the rear left flank of Line 3. The skirmish unit under Hammond forms the left flank of Line 3 while McDowell's skirmish unit falls back to defend the right flank of Line 3.) When Tarleton sends cavalry to attack Line 2 on its retreat, Washingtons cavalry makes surprise charge around hill on Line 3's left flank and scatters Tarleton's cavalry. (Note: Babits says that part of militia also retreated through center of Line 3 -- where a hole was temporarily opened for them.) Note that the militia riflemen in Lines 1 and 2 inflicted heavy damage on the British. Babits notes that the "American rifle fire was incredibly effective". General Morgan said that the militia Line 2 ""gave them a heavy and galling fire." 3) As British line advances toward Line 3, each line fires. Tarleton orders his cavalry to attack Morgan's right flank but McDowell's skirmisher delays the British until Washington's cavalry can intervene. Tarleton orders his reserve behind his front line (71 st Highlanders) to attack Morgan's Right Flank on Line 3. Howard orders Virginia Continentals (under Wallace) on his right flank to swivel around on a diagonal to protect right flank. Order is misunderstood, Wallaces' unit retreats rearward about 100 yards, and rest of Line 3 follows. British line breaks into a charge. Suddenly , Line 3 turns arounds from retreat and lets British have it with a volley. Line 3 then charges with bayonet. Center of British Line is disrupted and panics but 71st Highlanders continue attack on Morgan's right flank. Suddenly Pickens' militia of Lines 1 and 2, who have circled around the hill from Morgan's left flank to to his right flank, fall on the Highlanders from Morgan's right flank. Washington's Cavalry charges from the left. (Famous double envelopment). British infantry forces collapse in panic and surrender -- British cavalry flees , pursued by Washington. Babits (page 119) notes that "Only after the militia came back on the field did the 71st break .. the first instance of a Highland regiment running from the enemy." 4) Point is, the militia performed brilliantly and AS ORDERED. Not only did the militia weakened the British advance with two volleys and disrupted their attack on Morgan's right flank, the marksmen in Line 1 promoted the final panic in the British infantry by killing a number of British officers during the advance -- 18th century British infantry advanced into fire at the urging and threats of officers. McDowell's militia protected Morgan's right flank at a critical moment and Colonel Picken's militia units attacking at the crest broke the 71st Highlanders. Moreover, mounted militiamen made up one third of Washington's cavalry. Size of both armies was in neighborhood of 1000-1200 men? End result: British losses: 110 dead, over 200 wounded and 500 captured. Morgan loses: only 12 killed and 60 wounded. 5) Certainly Congress was pleased. Howard and Washington received medals. For his "spirited conduct" at Cowpens, the Continental Congress presented militia commander Pickens with a sword and the State of South Carolina promoted him to Brigadier-General in the state militia.(http://www.nps.gov/cowp/pickens.htm) Congress' kudos were not just for tactical genius. The mere existence of Morgan's army, along with British defeats at King's Mountain and Cowpens, convinced Southern patriots that they would prevail. It was a potent POLITICAL force for recruitment of militia, for resistance to British occupation, and it demoralized the Tories. This was within a year of a time when General Lincoln had lost almost the entire southern part of the Continental Army (almost 5000 men) in the defeat at Charleston and the Patriot cause had seemed lost in the South. The destruction of Tarleton's command removed Cornwallis's light, mobile troops. Later, Cornwallis would abandon his baggage trains in a desperate attempt to catch the nimble Army of Morgan and Greene. Eventually, with his army exhausted by hundreds of miles of futile marches chasing Greene, Cornwallis took refuge in the trap at Yorktown. 6) US Army still studies Cowpens and use of militia today: See training exercise at http://call.army.mil/products/ctc_bull/99-8/cowpens.htm . There have been damm few military units able to carry off a double envelopment -- Hannibal's destruction of the Romans at Cannae and Hindenburg at the Battle of Tannenberg are among the few rare examples. 7) What Bellesiles fails to mention is that roughly two thirds of Morgan's forces at Cowpens were militia --whose rifles had deadly accuracy compared to the muskets of British infantry and American Continentals. Consider the following eyewitness account from a British officer who fought at Cowpens: ********************** Lieutenant Roderick Mackenzie served in the 71st (Frasier's) Highlanders at the battle of the Cowpens. After his return to England, he attacked his former commander, Tarleton, in the press. This letter appeared in the London Morning Chronicle on 9 August 1782.3 " You got yourself and your party completely ambuscaded, completely surrounded, upon all sides, by Mr. Morgan's rifle men. What was the consequence? The two detachments of British were made prisoners after a great slaughter was made among them, your legion dragoons were so broke by galling fire of rifle shot that your charging was in vain, till prudence, on your side, with about twenty men who were well mounted, made your retreat good, by leaving the remains of the poor blended legion in the hands of Mr. Morgan who I must say, though an enemy, showed great masterly abilities in this manoeuver." ******************* Source: US Army Command and General Staff College web site on Cowpens at http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/CSIPUBS/Moncure/moncure.htm#staff ; Appendix E, item 2 (near bottom) 8) Based on the above, it hard for me to interpret Bellesiles's account as anything other than a dirty, underhanded and deceitful smear on men who gave their lives to free this country from British domination. In my opinion, Bellesiles' account is based not on objective historical research but on a need to lie about our history in order to justify a ban on gun possession by citizens. Name: Peter H Proctor - 205.241.160.30 Mon Jan 21 11:20:44 2002 EST Comments: I recall an article in the Quarterly Journal of Military History in which Cornwallis is reported to have said the the Battle of King's mountain was the "End of all his hopes" or words to that effect. King's mountain was completely fought by militia troops. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 198.81.16.162 Mon Jan 21 10:52:45 2002 EST Comments: It is unfortunate that so much emphasis has been put on the San Francisco probate records that only Bellesiles seems to have found. As I have told several reporters, the real issue isn't the probate records that didn't seem to exist; it's the hundreds of primary and secondary sources that Bellesiles has misquoted and misrepresented. That Bellesiles STILL insists that his quotation from the 1792 Militia Act is really from the 1803 Militia Act shows how little respect he has for truth -- and how few people bother to check the documents in question. Name: William w duckworth - 65.58.21.224 Sun Jan 20 11:01:17 2002 EST Comments: TheSF CA probate records have been found ! (see AJC 1/20/02)I'm sure this will be welcome news to historians and geneaologists with an interest in California. Name: Roger Whatley - 204.1.23.56 Sat Jan 19 18:11:59 2002 EST Comments: I have been studying this brouhaha over Bellesiles' book. I have read a number of critical articles and now I read his OAH defensive article. In that article I came across the following excerpt: "Arming America does not, to my knowledge, support any contemporary political position." With that one statement, IMHO, Bellesiles destroys his own credibility. His book electrified both sides of the gun-rights debate. If he does not recognize the propaganda value of the proposition for which he contends, he has no hold on reality, or he is careless with it. Either way he is lacking in credibility. Oh, I have read the myriad other claims of errors, they certainly sound serious and they need a serious academic response. But, again, in my opinion, Bellesiles has tipped his hand in one simple statement as to how he deals with reality. Roger Whatley Georgetown, Texas Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.218.183 Sat Jan 19 0:53:28 2002 EST Comments: Re: the Tocqueville observations I noted 3-5 messages back, here are a few more Bellesiles gems from "Arming America": a) p. 309, para. 3, Bellesiles says: "Travelers saw wastefulness...and many other traits,but somehow they just did not see the guns that were supposedly all around them. They especially did not notice all those young children learning to use a gun from infancy. One would think that such astute observers as Tocqueville would have noticed such things." b) p. 149, bottom of para 2: "The fable of the family musket kept above the mantel ready for use will just not pass muster." (was pun intended?) Name: passing by - 208.25.52.131 Fri Jan 18 22:41:23 2002 EST Comments: PRESS RELEASE: Emery University and Knopfff Books are pleased to announce the publication of a new work by the Brancroft Prize winning politically correct neomarxist historian Michael A. Bellesiles. Based on ten years bumbling analysis of largely imaginary sources, in his ground breaking George Washington - Illegal Immigrant, revisionist Bellesiles proves conclusively that capitalists from Antarctica were behind the American Revolution. His thoughtful analysis begins in 1849, when Washington, with his friends the Hispanic Thomas Jefferson and the African-Antartician Benjamin Franklin, snuck under the Mississippi River and, guided by Sacagawea, join a nudist colony. As The Journal of American Hallucinations, of the Organization of Analytical Historians, noted, "this book has something for everyone. Its the Nude Rafting Association's worst nightmare! Especially notable are the probate...." Name: Don Williams ( small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.215.140 Fri Jan 18 17:53:35 2002 EST Comments: Re: Chapter Six of Bellesiles's "Arming America". In this chapter ("A People Numerous and Unarmed") Bellesiles spends a lot of time and text trying to show that the militia were ineffectual and worthless in the Revolutionary War. Bellesiles book does not have the tone of an objective study -- in which available data on a subject is presented and interpreted. Instead, Arming America has the tone of a political tract -- in this case, Bellesiles view of how Revolutionary War history occurred and selected anecdotes from obscure Revolutionary War figures to back up his sweeping anti-militia diatribes. He appears to be a gun control advocate determined to destroy the "myth of the citizen soldier" via a one-sided polemic disguised as objective historical research. The problem is that his descriptions of various major events are incomplete and often contrary to the picture given by historians who have studied specific battles in depth. Bellesiles also seems very lacking in knowledge of military tactics, strategy, logistics, politics, Constraints imposed by economic forces, guerrilla warfare, and the nature of gaining popular support for political revolutions. A much more sophisticated view of the American Revolution is given by the US Army's Center for Military History -specifically , in its current edition of "American Military History" - see http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/amh-toc.htm . The Army's CMH also has a much more professional evaluation of American battles and the militia's role in them. For example, on page 194-195, Bellesiles includes a lot of quotes from George Washington re: the shortfalls of the Militia. However, he fails to note that in 1776 (period of quotes) Washington was a politican with little military experience, that Washington's performance as general in the New York City campaign of 1776 was generally felt to be poor (he was learning on the job), and that part of Washington's griping was in part an Attempt to excuse American battle losses so that he wouldn't be relieved of command by Congress. Bellesiles also doesn't consider that part of Washington's complaint was due to the militia not being under his control in the manner of the Continental Army and his desire to convert the militia into Continental Army units or at least to receive a lot more money and supplies from Congress and the States. Nor does Bellesiles mention that Washington's Continental Army frequently got it's behind kicked (New York , Brandywine, Philadelphia-Germantown, Monmouth,etc.) and that the Continental Army spent most of it's time camped outside the cities that the British occupied (Philadelphia, New York) -- able to do little more than block British forging parties. Bellesiles makes a passing mention of Colonel John Stark's militia at Bennington, without mentioning that Stark's militia destroyed almost one tenth of Burgoyne's command. He also doesn't mention that the militia then fought at Saratoga and that their cutoff of Burgoyne's supply lines led to the strategic victory that convinced France and Spain to come into the war. Except for Cowpens, Bellesiles makes no mention of the guerrilla war in the South. Yet US Army historians and Army officers still study the Southern Campaign and how it set Cornwallis up for the decisive defeat at Yorktown that won the war. After the southern part of the Continental Army was destroyed at Camden, the war in the South was carried out by guerrila bands led by Pickens, Francis Marion, Sumter,etc. General Nathanael Green, who took over from Gates, relied heavily on the militias to supplement his small Continental Army force while he tried to reconstitute his forces. Bellesiles makes no mention of the southern militia's victory at King's Mountain in 1780 -- the victory in a year of despair that revitalized the Patriot cause and convinced the French king to give Congress a much-need loan. Bellesiles and Garry Wills both seem lacking in an understanding of the major contribution made by the militia --or else they overlook the militia's contributions in order to promote their gun control agenda. Militia contributions were as follows: (a) they were cheap (b) they were ubiquitous (c) they kept the Tories in line and prevented the creation of a British puppet government. (d) they were impossible to suppress -- and hence ensured that Britain could never win the War.(e) they could defeat the British if sufficiently annoyed by British behavior Regarding (a), the American economy and Congress could not support a large standing army -- even Washington's small Continental Army was starved and poorly equipped half the time. Consider the starvation and suffering of the roughly 11,000 men at Valley Forge in 1777-78. The problem was that Congress did not have the political power to raise tax revenues and so it printed money which quickly became worthless -plus the economy was Badly disrupted by war and the cutoff of trade. The US Army's American Military History notes: "In the summer of 1780 the American cause seemed to be at as low an ebb as it had been after the New York campaign in 1776 or after the defeats at Ticonderoga and Brandywine in 1777. Defeat in the south was not the only discouraging aspect of patriot affairs. In the north a creeping paralysis had set in as the patriotic enthusiasm of the early war years waned. The Continental currency had virtually depreciated out of existence, and Congress was impotent to pay the soldiers or purchase supplies. At Morristown, New Jersey, in the winter of 1779-8O the army suffered worse hardships than at Valley Forge. Congress could do little but attempt to shift its responsibilities onto the states,… …Under such difficulties, Washington had to struggle to hold even a small Army together. Recruiting of Continentals, difficult to begin with, became almost impossible when the troops could neither be paid nor supplied adequately and had to suffer such winters as those at Morristown. Enlistments and drafts from the militia in 1780 produced not quite half as many men for one year's service as had enlisted in 1775 for three years or the duration. While recruiting lagged, morale among those men who had enlisted for the longer terms naturally fell. Mutinies in 1780 and 1781 were suppressed only by measures of great severity. … .Arnold's treason in September 1780 marked the nadir of the patriot cause…It was the frontier militia assembling "when they were about to be attacked in their own homes" who struck the blow that actually marked the turning point in the south" Source: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-04.htm Militia , were economically efficient -- they worked part time and fought only when the enemy was in the nearby area. Continental soldiers had to be fed and paid even when they spent months inactive in camps outside Philadelphia and New York. Regarding (b), the British could not afford a large enough army to occupy the large American landmass -- they were in a constant quandry: If they dispersed their forces to occupy land area, then the militias would kill small units and cut supply lines. If the British concentrated their forces, then they only had control over a small area. A conventional force like Washinton's Continental Army may be destroyed on the battlefield by another conventional force of the same size--by contrast, a guerrilla force gives no "center of gravity " that can be attacked -- it generally takes a conventional force of up to 5 times the number of guerrillas to totally suppress a guerrilla force. King George III simply did not have the money and manpower to suppress the North American guerrillas --especially with France, Holland, and Spain waiting to attack England if English forces were too weakened by the American campaign - just as the Soviet Union and China were waiting to move in other areas of the world if the US committed too many forces to Vietnam. The militia used local concealed supplies -- King George had to pay to ship soldiers and supplies across the Atlantic. After several years, British people were fed up with theexpense and the British government was voted out. Regarding (c), the militia kept the Tories intimidated and prevented the British from ever setting up a puppet government - something the British hoped to do in the South in order to reduce the demand and expense of maintaining British troops in occupied areas. A fairly nasty, underground war was fought between Tories and Patriots in the South -- the Patriot won. Just like in Vietnam, where the Vietcong underground cut off grass roots support for the South Vietnamese government in Saigon and made US "Vietnamization " a failure. The common British soldiers often abused American civilians -- the Patriot partisans , by avenging mistreatment and by their mere existence, propagated the POLITICAL ideas of resistance, of individual rights, and of freedom -- and help politically convert many American civilians over to the idea of Independence. This translated into sabotage of British supplies, superior intelligence networks for the Patriots , covert civilians supplies to the partisans,etc. Given that British forces only numbered around roughly 30,000 men and that American population was around 2.5 million, "hearts and minds" mattered. Regarding (d) the Patriot guerrillas could live off the land --stay dispersed in small groups in the Mountains, swamps, and forests - only to assemble in large formations at unexpected locations in unpredictable attacks. Even if defeated in conventional battle, they simply melted away and then reappeared later. Their retreats were not always due to lack of courage -- their rifle had greater range/accuracy than muskets but had no bayonet with which to block a British charge -- sniper tactics made more sense. Both Continental Army and militia were necessary to win the war -- most major Patriot victories (Saratoga, Southern campaign battles at Cowpens, Guildford Court House,etc.) occurred when the Patriot general was smart enough to make use of both. US Army historians recognize the above even if Bellesiles and Garry Wills apparently do not. But then, mere academics with a narrow specialty usually don't have an understanding of military tactics, of military strategy , of the economic considerations of warfare, and of high politics/diplomacy. Read Chapter 6 of Bellesiles and then read the Army's history of the Revolution at http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-03.htm and http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/AMH/AMH-04.htm. Consider An extract from the latter reference: "The militia, the men who fought battles and then went home, also exhibited this spirit on many occasions. The militiamen have been generally maligned as useless by one school of thought, and glorified by another as the true victors in the war. In any balanced view it must be recognized that their contributions were great, though they would have counted for little without a Continental Army to give the American cause that continued sustenance that only a permanent force in being could give it. It was the ubiquity of the militia that made British victories over the Continentals in the field so meaningless. And the success with which the militia did operate derived from the firm political control the patriots had established over the countryside long before the British were in any position to challenge it-the situation that made the British task so difficult in the first place. " Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net ) - 151.197.215.92 Fri Jan 18 14:13:10 2002 EST Comments: CORRECTION to preceding post: My extract was taken from Appendix U, not Appendix O, of Tocqueville's "Democracy in America". Text source is University of Virginia server at http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/ap_u.htm . Table of Contents for full document is at http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/toc_indx.html . See also http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/home.html Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.215.92 Fri Jan 18 13:46:28 2002 EST Comments: Actually, "Democracy in America" also has a passage in it which discredits Bellesiles. As noted in previous post, Bellesiles asserts that Tocqueville only mentioned guns once and that in connection with the Army. Here is another Tocqueville observation which Bellesiles appears to have overlooked: In Appendix O of "Democracy in America", Tocqueville said: "I find in my traveling-journal a passage that may serve to convey a more complete notion of the trials to which the women of America, who consent to follow their husbands into the wilds, are often subjected. This description has nothing to recommend it but its perfect truth. "From time to time we come to fresh clearings; all these places are alike; I shall describe the one at which we halted tonight, since it will serve me for a picture of all the others. ..."We entered the log house: the inside is quite unlike that of the cottages of the peasantry of Europe; it contains more that is superfluous, less that is necessary. A single window with a muslin curtain, on a hearth of trodden clay an immense fire, which lights the whole interior; above the hearth, a good rifle, a deerskin, and plumes of eagles' feathers; ...." NOTE that Tocqueville's canonical description of the usual American rural dwelling included "a good rifle" above the hearth. Doesn't it appear that Bellesiles' description of Tocqueville's observations (see immediately preceding post) was not just wrong but -- coming from a full professor of history at Emory University -- so wrong as to be intentional deceit? Name: Don Williams (small.corgi@verizon.net) - 151.197.215.92 Fri Jan 18 13:04:54 2002 EST Comments: I'm curious as to why the 11,000 members of OAH --self-described as "the largest professional society dedicated to the teaching and study of American history" -- have not challenged what I see as some obvious misstatements in Bellesiles' "Arming America". Can anyone explain this?? 1) For example, on page 309, Bellesiles says: "...Travelers saw wastefulness... restlessness, and many other traits, but somehow they just did not see the guns that were supposedly all around them... yet the only references to firearms tend to appear in the accounts of those who came specifically to the United States to hunt. They noticed guns , and they observed the inferiority of the American firearm." On Page 348, Bellesiles notes " .. that great observer of early America, Alexis de Tocqueville, mentioned guns once. In explaining why democratic armies --'this small uncivilized nation' as he called it -- are dangerous, he wrote that the army 'has arms in its possession and alone knows how to use them...' 2) Tocqueville was a Frenchman who toured America in the 1830s and wrote a classic treatise "Democracy in America". According to Bellesiles footnotes, this is the book he checked. However, Democracy in America is a survey of America's political structure and social structure. Tocqueville's journal of his actual observations of America is in a different book -- "Journey to America". Tocqueville's journal has an observation which discredits Bellesiles entire argument: "The peasant's cabin in Kentucky or Tennessee is generally divided into two parts as shown in the margin. All round there are a certain number of huts that serve as stables. The interior of these dwellings show up the master's laziness even more than his poverty. There one finds a fairly clean bed, some chairs, a good gun, often some books and almost always a newspaper, but the walls are so open to the day that the outside air comes in on every side. " (Online Source: http://www.c-span.org/alexis/tn3.htm#1220b and http://www.c-span.org/alexis/tn.htm ) 3) In other words, it was common for even ordinary "peasants" to have a good gun -- something contrary to the entire thrust of Bellesiles book. Tocqueville is a primary source -- he actually traveled in America in 1830s and wrote about it -- Bellesiles obviously was not there. Note that Bellesiles, a history professor, not only does not tell us of Tocqueville's above remark, he also tells us that Tocqueville only mentioned guns ONCE -- i.e., in the quote in para (1) above. Name: veritas - 66.170.161.21 Wed Jan 16 11:30:22 2002 EST Comments: QUOTE There have always been liars, but until recent years liars were rare among scientists and scholars. The only agenda scientists and scholars had was truth. They didn't always succeed in finding truth, but it was their goal. In recent years, we have seen the advent of a new breed of scientist and scholar to whom ideological or political agendas are more important than truth. According to news reports, Emory University historian Michael Bellesiles apparently believes so strongly in gun control that he invented a history for the purpose of undermining the Constitution's Second Amendment, the right of citizens to own guns. The appearance on the scene of scientists and scholars who betray the public's trust in their integrity in order to advance ideological agendas is frightening. When the canons of scholarly objectivity become widely abandoned, truth ceases to guide decisions. Before our very eyes, history is being transformed into politically correct fantasy. -- Paul Craig Roberts, Jan. 16, 2002 http://www.newsmax.com/commentmax/articles/Paul_Craig_Roberts.shtml Name: David Golden - 63.198.193.60 Mon Jan 14 3:19:12 2002 EST Comments: Bellesiles vs. Morgan : The Ordeal of Scholarship available at http://home.pacbell.net/auen/AA-MorganCites.rtf Research prepared by David M. Golden (david.golden@alum.mit.edu), 11/24/2001 (First published 1/14/02 on the OAH web site) The URL above links to new analysis on the accuracy of Notes in the book "Arming America" by Michael A. Bellesiles. This analysis reviews the citations that reference "American Slavery, American Freedom: The Ordeal of Colonial Virginia" by Edmund S. Morgan (1975). Bellesiles cites Morgan's work but -- with the exception of common knowledge for which a citation is unnecessary -- not a single significant point made by Bellesiles is clearly supported by Morgan's work. Even worse, Bellesiles demonstrates unscholarly behavior in his handling of scholarship by Morgan that contradicts Bellesiles's claim that gun ownership was the exception rather than the rule. Name: ddiaz - 205.188.195.31 Sun Jan 13 2:53:22 2002 EST Comments: Why does he only respond to his nameless email critics and not the acclaimed academic ones? Name: veritas - 66.170.160.103 Sun Jan 13 0:36:29 2002 EST Comments: QUOTE: I was criticized last year for my “starry-eyed” review of a book called Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture. The book said few people cared about or owned guns in the early 1800s. It offered mounds of evidence, which I and many others believed. Today, I'm not so sure. -- Karen Samples http://enquirer.com/editions/2002/01/12/loc_samples_books.html Name: passing by - 209.142.19.153 Sat Jan 12 14:29:55 2002 EST Comments: I see Bellesiles teaches a course in "historical imagination." Perhaps one of his term papers got published by mistake? Name: Jerry A. Stein - 63.29.169.66 Sat Jan 12 6:58:27 2002 EST Comments: It appears that Prof. Bellesile has been caught in the same situation as holocaust de-bunker Fred Leuchter. Name: urbandweller - 63.29.149.140 Sat Jan 12 1:35:13 2002 EST Comments: What puzzles me is why Mr. Bellesiles wanted to pass this book as an historical study when he could've turned this into a novel with minimal scandal and damage to his professional reputation. Considering his creative response to his inability to produce relevant documents (flood in the office), fiction may be his forte. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 156.153.255.236 Wed Jan 9 15:49:36 2002 EST Comments: John Wilson, the editor of Books & Culture, wrote a very positive review of Arming America shortly after it came out. He has since figured out that he was taken. See http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2002/001/17.4.html. "Clayton Cramer and the others who took the trouble to check Bellesiles's sources certainly weren't above the fray. They were convinced that Arming America was wrong, and they set out to prove it, but in doing so they assembled objective evidence. Flattering myself on my objectivity, I didn't practice reasonable skepticism in the face of Bellesiles's provocative claims." Name: Frank A. Baldridge - 209.142.19.135 Tue Jan 8 20:01:02 2002 EST Comments: Bellesiles claims his book has no agenda, yet there was an obvious agenda in his 1996 article on the same subject in the Journal of American History, which cited the same sources, etc. He just didn't get called on his poor scholarship and agenda at that time. This whole esisode illustrates that far too often at present works win "aclaim" due to "politically correct agendas." I could cite several other works, of a less controversial nature, currently in print by the academic press which are also poorly researched, and inaccurate, but "politically correct." As an academic historian who has spent four years researching early California gunsmiths, and "shooting sports," it is my contention that probate records do not accurately reflect firearms useage. I believe Bellesiles chose an inappropriate research technique in the first place. This instance is unfortunate for both our shooting sports heritage, history, real historians, and responsible "gun" owners. If the charges against Bellesiles are true, and I believe many of them are, in order for "academic" historians to maintain any creditability, Bellesiles must be severly disaplined. At the same time "academic" editors need to be more critical regarding what they are publishing - this affair should have been laid to rest in 1996. Name: veritas - 66.170.161.44 Tue Jan 8 14:12:40 2002 EST Comments: QUOTE: ...it has become evident that Arming America is not a new version of history, but a historical novel. Isn’t it time for the Academy of Historians to reclassify it as fiction? http://www.frontpagemag.com/columnists/metaksa/2002/metaksa01-08-02.htm Name: veritas - 66.170.160.180 Mon Jan 7 12:33:49 2002 EST Comments: QUOTE: "...people have been convicted in courts with far less evidence than that already amassed against Professor Bellesiles’ research." http://www.cfif.org/5_8_2001/Free_line/america/gun_count.htm Name: veritas - 66.170.161.158 Fri Jan 4 0:22:40 2002 EST Comments: QUOTE: Civil War historian Joseph Bilby of New Jersey recently wrote in his column for the February issue of Civil War News, “Through all of this, Mr. Bellesiles has offered a continuing vague, shifting defense of his work, admitting error in some cases, while ignoring other charges. His claims of ‘hacking’ at his website, as well as purported ‘death threats’ from gunowners remain totally unsubstantiated. To my mind such stories are convenient, if apparently unsuccessful, red herrings intended to rally the anti-gun crowd to his defense and becloud and politicize the main issues in this case—improper professional conduct and historical inaccuracy.” Bilby told Gun Week that he is “absolutely embarrassed” at Arming America. “It’s because of the way he mishandled sources,” he explained, “the way he manipulated sources and the way he apparently fabricated the sources to meet a preconceived idea. It’s been done before, but it’s certainly not ethical. . . . There have been cases of falsification of evidence in the science field in recent years, and this appears to be a similar situation.” SOURCE: GunWeek.com About Joe Bilby http://www.civilwarguns.com/01bilbypage.html Name: J. R. Miller - 207.229.81.14 Wed Jan 2 14:27:03 2002 EST Comments: What a crybaby. Bellesiles writes a work of fiction and tries to pass it off as fact. What does he expect? Of course, there are many who are a tad angry with him. As the old saying goes, "If you can't stand the heat..." Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Tue Jan 1 21:52:24 2002 EST Comments: Re: the previous comment. For those who don't know, Milli Vanilli was a singing group that sold several million albums and actually won the 1989 (or 1990?) Grammy Award for Best New Artist. It was later found out that had not sung on the album for which they won the Grammy and they lip-synched their concerts. Their Grammy was revoked and their career was quickly over. Will history repeat itself? Name: veritas - 66.170.162.87 Tue Jan 1 17:24:24 2002 EST Comments: Russell Baker has dubbed Mr. Bellesiles "the Milli Vanilli of the academic community." http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020101-9981049.htm Name: Jim G - 209.240.222.132 Tue Jan 1 11:18:16 2002 EST Comments: Lies are a real bitch. Lies committed by an academic researcher are death. Name: B Sel - 136.167.98.167 Thu Dec 20 22:05:30 2001 EST Comments: I havn't passed final judgment, but I think Bellesiles got caught cheating. Name: veritas - 66.170.162.13 Fri Dec 14 23:40:16 2001 EST Comments: Quote: "Well, now, finally, at long last, some good news about Michael A. Bellesiles' Arming America: The Origins Of A National Gun Culture (Knopf, 2000). In a move that is way past due, a major pusher of Bellesiles' awful book -- the History Book Club (HBC) -- is backing off of its support for this disgraceful, shoddy work masquerading as scholarship. " Complete story at: http://www.gunowners.org/opagny01pt22.htm Name: veritas - 66.170.162.49 Tue Dec 11 12:02:46 2001 EST Comments: For those who would rather not register with the New York Times the article can be found here: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nyt/20011208/en/historian_s_prizewinning_book_on_guns_is_embroiled_in_a_scandal_1.html To whet your appetite for the article please allow me to quote a small part: "Those who have pressed him hardest for details say they have been led on a bizarre scholarly car chase, with Mr. Bellesiles offering new memories about where he got his records as soon as the old ones were discredited. " As Clayton said, "Toast." Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Sat Dec 8 22:12:55 2001 EST Comments: Here’s a link to the New York Times article mentioned in the comment below. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/08/books/08GUNS.html You may have to register at the NY Times website to access the article. The article title is “Historian's Prizewinning Book on Guns Is Embroiled in a Scandal” By Robert F. Worth. Here’s a quote from the article. “Now many of Mr. Bellesiles's defenders have gone silent. Over the past year a number of scholars who have examined his sources say he has seriously misused historical records and possibly fabricated them. They say the outcome, when all the evidence is in, could be one of the worst academic scandals in years.” Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 64.42.94.84 Sat Dec 8 2:35:39 2001 EST Comments: Tne New York Times December 8, in the Arts section, is now admitting that there is a serious controversy brewing about Bellesiles's scholarly integrity. When the New York Times finally covers it, Bellesiles is toast. Name: Peter H Proctor - 205.241.160.114 Tue Dec 4 11:49:04 2001 EST Comments: From " Conduct and Misconduct in Science ".. by David Goodstein.... Located at http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/conduct.html.... ...." Fraud means serious misconduct with intent to deceive. Intent to deceive is the very antithesis of ethical behavior in science. When you read a scientific paper, you are free to agree or disagree with its conclusions, but you must always be confident that you can trust its account of the procedures that were used and the results produced by those procedures. " ..... and.... ...." Early on, when I had just begun to think and write about this subject, one of my very distinguished Caltech colleagues came to see me, and said, in effect, " Look, son, let me explain to you how all this works. Scientific truth is the coin of the realm. Faking data means counterfeiting the coin. That's a serious crime. All this other stuff you talk about, plagiarism, authorship problems and so on, that's just a matter of who's been handling the coins. That's much less important.".... " Name: Peter H Proctor - 205.241.160.114 Tue Dec 4 10:56:22 2001 EST Comments: Conduct and Misconduct in Science by David Goodstein http://www.its.caltech.edu/~dg/conduct.html " Fraud means serious misconduct with intent to deceive. Intent to deceive is the very antithesis of ethical behavior in science. When you read a scientific paper, you are free to agree or disagree with its conclusions, but you must always be confident that you can trust its account of the procedures that were used and the results produced by those procedures. " and.... " Early on, when I had just begun to think and write about this subject, one of my very distinguished Caltech colleagues came to see me, and said, in effect, " Look, son, let me explain to you how all this works. Scientific truth is the coin of the realm. Faking data means counterfeiting the coin. That's a serious crime. All this other stuff you talk about, plagiarism, authorship problems and so on, that's just a matter of who's been handling the coins. That's much less important." " Name: Ed Dickson - 205.188.197.182 Mon Dec 3 16:58:00 2001 EST Comments: Re Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Mike, we at least have to consider the full sentence Jefferson wrote. Jefferson said But this injunction was always indifferently complied with, and the arms they had have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars, that in the lower parts of the country they are entirely disarmed. [emp. mine] It would seem that the obvious reading of the sentence says that the “lower parts of the country” are disarmed not because they didn’t have guns originally, but because the guns they had were transferred to the regulars. In any case Jefferson was a completely literate man who would not have used “disarmed” when he meant “unarmed”. Name: Norman Heath - 199.170.68.209 Mon Dec 3 16:09:09 2001 EST Comments: It does not matter what Thomas Jefferson wrote about guns two hundred twenty years ago, or whether he was correct. The number of guns in circulation at that time is an arcane question of little real import. What matters here is what Michael Bellesiles wrote about guns one year ago, and why he made innumerable assertions which are not supported by the material he cited. The number of guns in circulation at the time of the Revolution is of little consequence; what is of great consequence is the accuracy of secondary scholarship, the veracity of the citations, the accountability of the authors, and the willingness or unwillingness of the academy to address difficult and embarrassing instances of misconduct. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.247.11 Mon Dec 3 9:38:44 2001 EST Comments: Michael Rosenberg writes: "Further, it should be noted that Jefferson confirms what Henry said earlier -- that the obligation of 'ever militia-man to provide himself with the arms usual in regular service... was always indifferently complied with.' I find it hard to read Jefferson's observations as anything but a statement about the state of *all* [long] arms." Why then, does Jefferson use the qualifying phrase "the arms usual in regular service" instead of just leaving it at "arms"? There was considerable unwillingness of many colonists to have the arms "usual in regular service" because muskets were not so useful as rifles in the back country. In New England, many militiamen owned fowling-pieces of a caliber that meant that they roughly conformed to the law -- and the law was admittedly not enforced with much vigor by the time of the Revolution. There is certainly a point where militia and state army impressments of firearms had a significant impact on the number of guns in private hands. But would you care to explain why the United States imported at least 1,030,694 pounds of gunpowder in the years 1769-1771, if guns were so scarce? See Public Records office, Customs 16. Can you explain why a loyalist account of Revolutionary intimidation just before the war reported "At Worcester, a mob of about five thousand collected, prevented the court of Common Pleas from sitting, (about one thousand of them had fire-arms,)…." if, as Bellesiles claims, there were no more than 40,000 guns in all of America, both privately and publicly owned, at the start of the Revolution? Or how it was that General Gage was able to get more than 2400 guns turned in by the people of Boston alone? Or why the average price of guns purchased by Massachusetts at the start of the Revolution was less than two pounds? The Provincial Congress of Massachusetts bought weapons from many private owners in the colony in the first few months of the war, sometimes purchasing as many as 100 weapons in a single transaction. If guns were so scarce in America, why did Pennsylvania's purchases of privately owned guns average two pounds, 14 shillings each? Can you explain why Colonel William Irvine of the 6th Pennsylvania Battalion informed John Hancock on March 22, 1776 concerning his soldier's guns, "Many of the arms are old, and want bayonets and other repairs…. I have been obliged to purchase many rifles, but they, I presume, may be changed for muskets, should the service require it…." If guns were rare, Col. Irvine didn't know it. On May 30, 1775, the New York Provincial Congress recommended "to the Inhabitants of this Colony in general, immediately to furnish themselves with necessary Arms & Ammunition…." On August 22, 1775, it ordered "That every man between the ages of 16 and 50 do with all convenient speed furnish himself with a good Musket or firelock" and provided for a fine "of five shillings for the want of a musket or firelock…." Every man "shall at his place of abode be also provided with one pound of powder and three pounds of bullets of proper size to his musket or firelock." So, were the people that lived in those times just engaging in fantasizing that there were guns available? Instructions for the raising of the four regiments also shows that the Continental Congress and the New York Provincial Congress believed that soldiers could buy their own guns, or bring their own from home. Instructions from the Continental Congress specified that New York should pay a "bounty of 6 2/3 dollars to every ablebodied effective man, properly cloathed for the service and having a good firelock with a bayonet and other accoutrements, and 4 dollars to every soldier not having the like arms and accoutrements…." On May 4, 1776, the New York Provincial Congress ordered Dutchess and Ulster Counties to complete the arming of a Continental Army regiment with arms "collected by disarming disaffected persons in their respective Counties & districts…." Westchester County received similar orders concerning arms confiscated from "disaffected persons." That these arms were firearms is made explicit: "Gun Musket or Firelock." Arms confiscated from the disaffected in Suffolk County were used to arm New York troops of that county. More fantasies? On March 14, 1776, Maryland's Council of Safety directed a Major Price "to purchase or contract for the making of two hundred Rifles, with proper Powder-horns and Pouches." Apparently, he found a supplier, because three days later, the Council directed the Treasurer "pay to Major Price five hundred Pounds, currency, for Rifles." Perhaps these rifles were merely does it seem likely that they would pay out money for promised rifles if it was not considered possible that they existed? There are reports from the Maryland Council of Safety and various officers that complain about the difficulty in obtaining guns--though even these reports acknowledge that there were guns being made, and that guns were available for purchase, even as late as August of 1776. Guns could be purchased for "£4 5s. in Virginia, for muskets, that currency." The problem was not that guns were scarce, but that it was difficult to borrow "firelocks from such of the Militia as will lend, on the publick faith that the same shall be returned in the like good order as received, or, in case of loss, the value thereof, in having them valued…." The concern was that the government might not return them in good order, or might not pay the full value of the guns if lost or captured. This difficulty in borrowing guns could be characterized as a shortage of guns in government hands, but not a shortage of guns in private hands. I can go on for hundreds of pages demonstrating that the people of the time knew that guns weren't scarce. There were problems getting private owners to turn them over, in many cases, and there were difficulties getting the right sort of guns to create uniform units (as "Baron" von Steuben complained at Valley Forge), but guns were not scarce in early America. Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Sun Dec 2 6:37:14 2001 EST Comments: re: Ed Dickson Sat Dec 1 12:07:43 2001 EST Ed, Jefferson notes the differences in uses. IN the "lower parft of (Virginia) entirely disarmed would seem to mean no weapons of any sort -- as opposed to the middle part in which maybe 20%-25% had "such firelocks as they had provided to destroy the noxious animals which infest their farms" and the Blue Ridge (western frontier) where folks are generally armed (with rifles). It's hard to envision Jefferson discussing no arms in one part of the state, while acknowledging separately smooth bore and rifled bore weapons in other parts, and thinking he meant none of one type ot another. Further, it should be noted that Jefferson confirms what Henry said earlier -- that the obligation of "ever militia-man to provide himself with the arms usual in regular service... was always indifferently complied with." I find it hard to read Jefferson's observations as anything but a statement about the state of *all* [long] arms. Name: Ed Dickson - 64.12.104.36 Sat Dec 1 12:07:43 2001 EST Comments: Re: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Tue Nov 27 18:00:04 2001 EST About your take on the Henry quote -- Nah, it won't wash. Simply, Henry's double arms refers to the arms as the state militia and the arms as the federal militia. The preceeding sentence: "May we not discipline and arm them, as well as Congress, if the power be concurrent? so that our militia shall have two sets of arms, double sets of regimentals, &c.; and thus, at a Very great cost, we shall be doubly armed." I have to agree and stand corrected, nonetheless the point that Henry and Jefferson were talking only of militia arms stands (more on that later). Similarly, on the Jefferson quote. Jefferson differentiates between flintlocks, rifles and "entirely disarmed" in Query IX (see mine below, at Tue Nov 20 20:10:29 2001 EST). First a quibble on facts; all firearms in general service at the time were flintlocks. The differentiation Jefferson makes between “firelocks” and “rifles” refers to not to the ignition system but the boring (i.e. smoothbore vs. rifled). What, if anything do Henry and Jefferson tell us about how many of the folks of the time owned firearms? Precious little I think. Both men were talking only about arms suitable for militia use, and as I posted earlier rifles and pistols were not considered such weapons (although Jefferson seems to allow that rifles have some military application). Further the Brown Bess, which was the current standard militia weapon is not a firearm well suited for hunting or self-defense and would not be the gun of choice for anyone buying a gun for those purposes. Kind of like today if everyone were required to purchase an M16. Most folks, even those who own firearms would look at the price and lack of general utility and say in effect “If you want me to have one of those things YOU pay for it!” (and the M16 has far more general utility today than the Brown Bess had then). Bellesiles, and you, seem to be advancing the thesis that militia guns = all guns and that is unsupportable. Name: Peter H. Proctor - 205.241.160.185 Fri Nov 30 19:18:57 2001 EST Comments: As I note, the 2400 guns confiscated by the Brits is a Mininum, and doesn't count firearms smuggled out or hidden. BTW, Clayton gives a very detailed analysis in his refutation of Bellisle. ( http://www.claytoncramer.com/ArmingAmericaLong.pdf ). More numbers: The total population of Boston in the 1790 census was about 18K ( http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0027.html ). Figure a few less fifteen years before. The same census gives 800K plus free while males over 16. roughly 20% of a total population of 3,893,874. So figure 3-4K adult Boston males in 1776, from whom 2400 guns were collected under duress. Pretty good evidence of a very armed population. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.247.11 Fri Nov 30 17:31:15 2001 EST Comments: Peter Proctor mentions 2500 firearms confiscated by the British in Boston at the start of the Revolution. While he is correct that there were at least 2500 firearms in Boston at that time, he is incorect that the British confiscated that many. That many were surrendered by the people of Boston in exchange for passes to leave the city. (General Gage did not actually give them the passes.) Moreover, General Gage soon proclaimed that there were many other firearms that had NOT been turned in. You can see an image of General Gage's proclamation at http://www.claytoncramer.com/GageFirearms.jpg complaining that the people of Boston "have been perfidious in this Respect and have secreted great Numbers." Just to add to the excitement: at one point in the body of his book, Bellesiles mentions the small number of firearms surrendered to General Gage as evidence that guns were rare -- but only reports the 1,778 "fire-arms." It turns out that "fire-arm" had a more narrow meaning at the time, excluding pistols and blunderbusses. There were 634 pistols surrendered to General Gage, and 38 blunderbusses as well, which Bellesiles neglects to mention -- at least in the main body. An honest mistake? Perhaps. But in the endnotes Bellesiles mentions the other guns, thus leaving the reader with the mistaken impression that there were less than 1800 guns in Boston. The evidence, even the evidence that Bellesiles clearly read, shows that there were at least 2500 guns in Boston -- and the proclamation above shows that Gage believed that there were many more that had not been turned in. Name: Peter H Proctor - 205.241.160.185 Fri Nov 30 14:23:17 2001 EST Comments: We actually have some good and consistent numbers from colonial times on the percentage of firearms ownership. E.g., The British confiscated about 2400 firearms of all types from the citizens of Boston in 1775. This was from a free adult population of about 10K and does not count guns hidden or smuggled out of the city. The implication is roughly one gun per two adult males. Similarly, in Federalist 46 Madison(?) notes that a federal standing army of 20,000 at most would be no match for the 500K armed and ready militia. While only an estimate, nobody seems to have disputed this figure at the time in such a political text. So it must be taken as a general assumption of the size of the militia. Further, the decade-later 1790 census showed 900K+ adult males, again implying that there were minimally one firearm per roughly every two free adult males. Name: Mike Wallters - 199.182.114.216 Fri Nov 30 11:32:08 2001 EST Comments: I agree that no person should be subject to harrassment. There is one problem. The document written by Mr. Bellesiles. Confirmed by his peers. Name: Harry E. O'Connell III - 199.86.133.27 Thu Nov 29 17:00:50 2001 EST Comments: No excuse for bad scholarship. Name: Maurice E. Hebert - 152.163.207.83 Thu Nov 29 14:51:13 2001 EST Comments: As a long retired real estate attorney in Maine, I have read many early Maine probate inventories, and a few from Massachusetts (estates probated before Maine was set off,) of which the following might be the entire inventory: A farmstead in the Town of (random name), of 80 acres more or less, in Lot 12 Range A, east of the (random name) River, a mule named James and a horse named Jimmy, a wagon and a sled in good condition, books of account, and miscellaneous items of household and farmstead equipment, goods and furnishings. How would one decide whether that inventory did or did not include one or more firearms? Name: Jeff Mayhew - 65.4.38.46 Wed Nov 28 22:33:10 2001 EST Comments: Some free PR advice for a guy who's definitely on the losing end of the facts: ditch the picture with the scatophagous grin... Name: Jon - 144.96.100.170 Wed Nov 28 12:38:35 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Rosenberg says, "Any reasonable interpretation is that Congress intended the individuals to provides their equipage, but after seven years, [discovered] that wasn't working and placed the burden on the government to provide arms." These acts never say the government will provide the arms. "Provided" has multiple meanings one of which is "To make ready ahead of time; prepare.(dictionary.com). People being constantly provided with arms means people being constantly ready ahead of time with arms. It is consistent with the people being the ones doing the purchasing. As Mr. Heath states, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court found individuals were still responsible for providing guns for themselves after the 1803 statute. Name: Norman Heath - 199.170.68.57 Tue Nov 27 22:50:02 2001 EST Comments: In reference to Michael Rosenberg's comments below on the language of the Militia Acts: first, Bellesiles presented a conflated quote and mis-cite which was not accurate to any version of any statute; second, he now claims falsely to have provided an accurate quote and cite of a statute other than that which he cited; third, the act of 1803 was NOT an amendment to the earlier act and did NOT repeal the self-provision of arms by militiamen. This matter was adjudicated by the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, who more than once found that "be constantly provided" in the 1803 act meant that militiamen were required by the 1792 act to provide themselves with arms and equipment and remain constantly provided, i.e. they could not buy the equipment, show up once, then sell it. So Prof. Bellesiles was wrong on the original quote, wrong on the original cite, wrong on the quote as reported in the attached column, wrong on the cite as reported, and wrong in his interpretation. As to the interpretation, he can be forgiven for his ignorance of the adjudication of these statutes. But a historian is responsible for the accuracy of any words he puts between quotation marks, whether he properly interprets those words or not. People who persistently misrepresent the same material leave themselves extremely vulnerable to accusations of deliberate fabrication. Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Tue Nov 27 18:00:04 2001 EST Comments: re: Edward Dickson (Tue Nov 27 16:52:07 2001 EST) About your take on the Henry quote -- Nah, it won't wash. Simply, Henry's double arms refers to the arms as the state militia and the arms as the federal militia. The preceeding sentence: "May we not discipline and arm them, as well as Congress, if the power be concurrent? so that our militia shall have two sets of arms, double sets of regimentals, &c.; and thus, at a Very great cost, we shall be doubly armed." (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=lled&fileName=003/lled003.db&recNum=397&itemLink=?%230030398&linkText=1). Similarly, on the Jefferson quote. Jefferson differentiates between flintlocks, rifles and "entirely disarmed" in Query IX (see mine below, at Tue Nov 20 20:10:29 2001 EST). One I cannot independant confirm/deny is your contention that " the arms in question were the property of the state and were transferred to the regulars leaving the militia 'disarmed'". But that's never stopped me offering at least an opinion.... In fact, there are numerous instances of privately owned arms being commandeered for government service. While firearms could not be siezed for payment of debt, the weapons of non-combatants were taken for use by combatants in Connecticut, among other states. (I admit I'm Bellesilesing this one -- to "bellesiles" is to work from memory without having original source and complete citation readily at hand.) Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Tue Nov 27 17:36:53 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Cramer (Wed Nov 21 1:33:42 2001 EST) seems to be so bent on attacking Professor Bellesiles that he misrepresents Bellesiles when everyone can check Cramer's cliam vis the quote Bellesiles attributes to the Militia act of 1792 (rather than the amended act of 1803). Mr Cramer: "He has falsely claimed that the quote he gives in the OAH Newsletter article appears on p. 230 of his book, in order to cover that what he actually wrote there is utterly and inexplicably wrong." What Professor Bellesiles said in the OAH article (): "One significant mistake in the original edition of Arming America occurs on page 230. In discussing the Militia Act of 1792, I quote the 1803 amendment to this act that "every citizen so enrolled, shall be constantly provided with arms, accoutrements, and ammunition." The quotation and its citation are both correct. The error is in the context. In editing my 1,200-page manuscript to a more manageable length, I compressed two paragraphs into one, failing to keep the transition between Congress's initial wording and its amendment of that wording eleven years later." The quote on page 230 (1st edition): " '... [E]very citizen so enrolled, shall...be constantly provided with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints,' and other accoutrements." The Militia act of 1792 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=394): "That every citizen so enrolled and notified, shall within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints and a knapsack, ..." [and an enumerated host of additional accoutrements]. The amendment of 1802 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=002/llsl002.db&recNum=244): "That every citizen duly enrolled in the militia shall constantly be provided with arms, accoutrements and ammunition." Clearly, what we have is an example of Professor Bellesiles' casualness as to accuracy, but in this case, rather than demonstrating any biases, it actually operates to the detriment of that purported bias. Any reasonable interpretation is that Congress intended the individuals to provides their equipage, but after seven years, discoverd that wasn't working and placed the burden on the government to provide arms. Mr. Cramer's foaming notwithstanding, Professor Bellesiles' errors are not the result of evil intent and his explaination far more staisfactory than are the contentions of the contentious Mr. Cramer and the other hired guns that this is evidence of some evil intent on the part of Professor Bellesiles (there is sarcasm in there, Mr. Cramer....) Name: Ed Dickson - 152.163.201.58 Tue Nov 27 16:52:07 2001 EST Comments: If the board moderator would remove my previously unformatted post I would appreciate it., Thanks Ed. Re: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Tue Nov 20 20:10:29 2001 EST Mr. Rosenberg writes: Jefferson (in Query IX of his Notes on Virginia) noted that: "The law requires every militia-man to provide himself with the arms usual in the regular service. But this injunction was always indifferently complied with, and the arms they had have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars, that in the lower parts of the country they are entirely disarmed. In the middle country a fourth or fifth part of them may have such firelocks as they had provided to destroy the noxious animals which infest their farms; and on the western side of the Blue ridge they are generally armed with rifles." Patrick Henry's "let every man be armed" sure impressed Halbrook, but it is in the same speech that he notes Virginia's failure to accimplish that goal, in spite of it's efforts: "The great object is, that every man be armed. But can the people afford to pay for double sets of arms, &c.? Every one Who is able may have a gun. But we have learned, by experience, that, necessary as it is to have arms, and though our Assembly has, by a succession of laws for many years, endeavored to have the militia completely armed, it is still far from being the case." Emp mine. The muskets “usual in the regular service” at the time, were in fact overlong, overweight, unwieldy 16 gauge shotguns, that when used with ball, as they were in military service, were grossly inaccurate. Given that guns, of any type, were expensive, it is unlikely that the citizens would willingly purchase muskets as their first/only gun when there were other firearms that would serve there daily needs better. Clearly Henry seems to be saying that, to honor their militia obligation they would have to purchase a second firearm, which hardly supports Professor Bellesiles’ claim that most folks were unarmed. Jefferson notes, “they are generally armed with rifles.” Rifles had far more utility for a farmer wishing to harvest a deer than a musket but were close to useless as a military arm because they became fouled after a few shots rendering them inoperable until cleaned (whereas the smoothbore musket would continue to function long after the rifle became no more than a club). Jefferson’s complaint, at least in part, seems more that the militiamen had the wrong type of guns, rather than that they had no guns at all. One more point on the Jefferson quotation. When he says, “the arms they had have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars”, it would seem clear that the arms in question were the property of the state and were transferred to the regulars leaving the militia “disarmed” in the military rather than absolute sense. Professor Bellesiles’ claim that there were fewer guns per capita until after the War Between the States than there are now is undoubtedly true, but it is a major leap to go from that to saying that a household was less likely to have a gun. One or two, or at most three guns are all that most folks, even today, would feel the “need” for, beyond that people acquire them for a verity of non-utilitarian reasons, including hunting, target shooting, and collecting them. Professor Bellesiles is at best a sloppy and biased researcher, and at worst an academic fraud. Name: Ed Dickson - 205.188.197.182 Tue Nov 27 14:48:23 2001 EST Comments: Re: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Tue Nov 20 20:10:29 2001 EST Mr. Rosenberg writes: Jefferson (in Query IX of his Notes on Virginia) noted that: "The law requires every militia-man to provide himself with the arms usual in the regular service. But this injunction was always indifferently complied with, and the arms they had have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars, that in the lower parts of the country they are entirely disarmed. In the middle country a fourth or fifth part of them may have such firelocks as they had provided to destroy the noxious animals which infest their farms; and on the western side of the Blue ridge they are generally armed with rifles." Patrick Henry's "let every man be armed" sure impressed Halbrook, but it is in the same speech that he notes Virginia's failure to accimplish that goal, in spite of it's efforts: "The great object is, that every man be armed. But can the people afford to pay for double sets of arms, &c.? Every one Who is able may have a gun. But we have learned, by experience, that, necessary as it is to have arms, and though our Assembly has, by a succession of laws for many years, endeavored to have the militia completely armed, it is still far from being the case." Emp mine. The muskets “usual in the regular service” at the time, were in fact overlong, overweight, unwieldy 16 gauge shotguns, that when used with ball, as they were in military service, were grossly inaccurate. Given that guns, of any type, were expensive, it is unlikely that the citizens would willingly purchase muskets as their first/only gun when there were other firearms that would serve there daily needs better. Clearly Henry seems to be saying that, to honor their militia obligation they would have to purchase a second firearm, which hardly supports Professor Bellesiles’ claim that most folks were unarmed. Jefferson notes, “they are generally armed with rifles.” Rifles had far more utility for a farmer wishing to harvest a deer than a musket but were close to useless as a military arm because they became fouled after a few shots rendering them inoperable until cleaned (whereas the smoothbore musket would continue to function long after the rifle became no more than a club). Jefferson’s complaint, at least in part, seems more that the militiamen had the wrong type of guns, rather than that they had no guns at all. One more point on the Jefferson quotation. When he says, “the arms they had have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars”, it would seem clear that the arms in question were the property of the state and were transferred to the regulars leaving the militia “disarmed” in the military rather than absolute sense. Professor Bellesiles’ claim that there were fewer guns per capita until after the War Between the States than there are now is undoubtedly true, but it is a major leap to go from that to saying that a household was less likely to have a gun. One or two, or at most three guns are all that most folks, even today, would feel the “need” for, beyond that people acquire them for a verity of non-utilitarian reasons, including hunting, target shooting, and collecting them. Professor Bellesiles is at best a sloppy and biased researcher, and at worst an academic fraud. Name: Mike Vanderboegh - 63.117.251.251 Tue Nov 27 10:20:27 2001 EST Comments: Intellectual dishonesty, thy name is Bellesiles. His "defence" is in some particulars what the Nixonians called "a non-denial denial". In others, he refutes that with which he is not charged. The skeptical members of the OAH are not charging him with being a member of "the Zionist Occupation Government" and to even mention such vile lunacy as a defense for bad scholarship is a red herring at best. Footnotes, I was taught in History 101, are supposed to be checkable and to reflect honestly what was written in the source cited. Had I attempted Bellesiles' style of "history" my professor would have flunked me, and rightly so. If it were merely a matter of one or two errors, Bellesiles would not find himself in the situation he's in today. The question is: why would Bellesiles, who presumably knows better, engage in such academic lies? (And, no, I don't think "lies" is too strong a word here.) No matter the answer, having been well and truly caught, he should be drummed out of the profession as a warning to other politico-revisionist "historians". Name: John L. Carter, Ph.D. - 210.69.214.134 Tue Nov 27 1:43:41 2001 EST Comments: It's Either a Question of History or a Question of Politics: Bellisiles Can't Have it Both Ways As a defense, Dr. Bellisiles' article isn't reassuring. He fails to rebut any of the serious evidentiary charges critical of his work in 'Arming America'. His misquote of his own book isn't an encouraging first step either, as his quote (of the book) in the article is not what was published and contextually quite different. This particular issue brings the Organization of American Historians and the AHA to a fork in the road. If Dr. Bellisiles' work is objective, historical research, there is no place for scurrilous attacks on him or his work. This is also not place for defense -- indeed any discussion-- of personal agendas or politics. It would be far more gratifying to hear Dr. Bellisiles address the points in the Lindgren and Cramer articles, and not waste space describing easily dismissed cranks. Obviously if 'Arming America' has crossed the line into politics, fraud, or personal agenda, then this organization has no business supporting it. In that case Dr. Bellisiles' complaints about email, web hacking, and crank calls are trite. Sad but true, hate mail from loonies is standard fare in politics; the recent poisoned letters to Congress that weren't noticed are evidence of that. Dr. Bellisiles needs to address the serious charges and ignore the wacky email. If he doesn't, the wacky people will be correct. Name: Neil Linnell - 170.118.157.135 Mon Nov 26 15:43:32 2001 EST Comments: Hmmmmmm...Dr. Bellesile's notes regarding the Probate Records (that were destroyed by the San Francisco earthquake of 1906) were destroyed by a flood? Where were the backup copies of his research? In the vault on the Titanic? The irony here is just too, too rich... Name: Disarming America - 208.5.44.21 Mon Nov 26 12:57:14 2001 EST Comments: Part II of National Review's critique is available here: http://www.nationalreview.com/nr_comment/nr_comment112601.shtml Name: veritas - 66.170.160.232 Mon Nov 26 1:35:37 2001 EST Comments: It's really amazing how few supporters Prof. Bellesiles has on this topic. Surely the imagined threat of actually having discourse with a "gun owner" isn't scaring them off. On to the topic... Since Mr. Rosenberg has expressed his opinion I'd like to trump him with another Rosenberg who doesn't have quite as rosy view of the work in debate... But there's a problem. A growing number of respected scholars, from across the political spectrum, are saying that Mr. Bellesiles's research and conclusions are wrong. They've charged that "Arming America" is riddled with errors so enormous as to seriously undermine his work. They argue he has incorrectly tabulated probate records, failed to include facts that strongly argue the opposite case and misquoted and miscited sources. Mr. Bellesiles denies all this, but has not yet handed over evidence to refute his critics. "From what I've seen," says Gerald Rosenberg, a visiting professor of law at Northwestern, "the evidence is so overwhelming that it is incumbent upon Bellesiles as a serious scholar to respond. He either has to admit error, or somehow show how his work is right." It's worth pointing out that not all of these professors have an obvious political agenda. Jim Lindgren, Gerald Rosenberg, Erik Monkkonen and Randolph Roth all prefaced their remarks by saying they favor gun control, that they respect Mr. Bellesiles, and that their criticism is aimed solely at the goal of accuracy. They marked the discrepancies down as honest mistakes. "We don't want to get into political battles," says Mr. Rosenberg. "We just want to do good scholarship." http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/kstrassel/?id=85000800 Please note that my Rosenberg is much more polite than I would be. I am not so sure there is anything honest about this work. Name: Norman Heath - 199.170.68.44 Thu Nov 22 16:55:16 2001 EST Comments: This is exactly what Prof. Bellesiles quotes on pp. 230 of the first edition of his book: "every citizen so enrolled, shall . . . be constantly provided with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints," [ . . . ] Bellesiles cites the authoritative source for the Militia Act of 1792 (Bellesiles' quote is not inaccurate representation of the Militia Act, for whatever reasons). * * * * * Now, here is the same quote as Bellesiles (in the linked OAH column) claims it appears in his book: "every citizen so enrolled, shall be constantly provided with arms, accoutrements, and ammunition." * * * * * Not only is he falsely reporting the contents of his own book, but he now denies that he originally cited the 1792 Act (he now claims to have quoted and cited an 1803 Act,which is false, although the new version of the quote does come from that act). Anybody with a first edition of Bellesiles's own book can compare it with his online column and see that he is falsely reporting his own quote and citation.* * * * * While there has been some unwarranted and ungentlemanly rhetoric directed at Prof. Bellesiles, the most damning "attacks" consist of nothing more than comparing his assertions with the documents he himself cites. In the matter of his controversial pp.230 quote, one need only compare the document which Bellesiles has misrepresented, in this case his own book, with the assertion he makes in the linked OAH column. Name: Jon - 144.96.100.170 Wed Nov 21 10:31:22 2001 EST Comments: If Mr. Rosenberg really wants to judge Cramer by the same standards Cramer judges Bellesiles, I offer him a way to do that. First, read Cramer’s scholarly articles critical of Arming America. Second, pick five of Cramer’s points at random or five points that seem most implausible. Third, check the primary source to see who is right. Fourth, come back here an announce Cramer is right or specify exactly on which points you found Cramer to be wrong. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.193.114 Wed Nov 21 1:33:42 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Rosenberg writes: "Mr. Cramer also asks why I attack him rather than explain Professor Belleiles' 'false quote'. That's because Professor Bellesiles has explained the quote, himself." He hasn't explained the quote, however. He has falsely claimed that the quote he gives in the OAH Newsletter article appears on p. 230 of his book, in order to cover that what he actually wrote there is utterly and inexplicably wrong. Don't take my word for it. If you don't have the first printing with the bogus quote, see http://www.claytoncramer.com/1792.jpg where you can see the image of what Bellesiles ACTUALLY wrote on p. 230, and what his sources ACTUALLY said. Then compare it to what Bellesiles claims in the OAH Newsletter article he said on p. 230. Bellesiles has misquoted HIMSELF and not in a subtle way. I am not a historian? Well, certainly not one like Professor Bellesiles. I don't alter quotes to make them fit my agenda. If Bellesiles is the model of a "real" historian, as Mr. Rosenberg seems to think, then historian is just another word for fiction writer. Name: Michael M. - 63.195.147.147 Wed Nov 21 1:05:14 2001 EST Comments: The reviews of Michael A. Bellesiles's work do present a good case for questioning his information sources. Many of his sources have proved fraudulent, that fact has called into question his personal bias for interpreting gun ownership and gun control. Although I agree with his right to write what he believes, Historians are expected to present the truth, not twist the truth. That is usually left to politicians. he may have entered that realm and is now suffering political attacks from organization I support because of the dubious nature of his information source. Fraud is a tough word, but may be accurate in this case. Name: Jon - 144.96.100.170 Tue Nov 20 22:56:13 2001 EST Comments: Regarding Mr. Rosenberg's comments. Definition of historian: "1. writer, student, or scholar of history. 2.One who writes or compiles a chronological record of events; a chronicler." (source:Dictionary.com). I see no definition here saying a historian is "someone with a PhD in history and a tenure track teaching position at a university in a department of history." He attacks Mr. Cramer without justification. Name: Bob - 63.143.141.198 Tue Nov 20 20:30:41 2001 EST Comments: And I almost forgot, everybody is a hired gun but the author who has no personal agenda. Not only that, but all those people attacking him are not even acadmics so their arguments are meaningless drivel. Are you really serious? Name: Bob - 63.143.141.198 Tue Nov 20 20:26:35 2001 EST Comments: "Oh, wait, we had an earthquake in San Francisco in 1906, maybe you heard about it. Sorry we don't have the records you asked for, go ahead and make up whatever suits you." Puuuleeeeeeassse! Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Tue Nov 20 20:10:29 2001 EST Comments: Clearly, Mr. Cramer hopes we will not judge him by the standards he applies to others -- or Mr. Cramer is equally guilty of the charges he levels against Professor Bellesiles, to wit: "Unlike Bellesiles's work, in reading both progun historians (Halbrook, Kates) and antigun historians (Carl T. Bogus, Lawrence Delbert Cress)..." In fact, of those four, only one is a historian -- Dr. Cress. Halbrook, Kates and Bogus and attorneys from whence my earlier reference to "Law Office History". Additionally, Mr. Cramer, repeatedly misrepresents and distorts what others have contended (in this case, denying he is a hired gun because "Mr. Rosenberg needs to read what I wrote. I made it very clear that I do not make a living from writing "progun" materials." But there is no claim that he made a living from it -- just that he made income from it. As to asking for his source materials, I'm not really interested in investigating his primary sources verificatio These egregious errors in fact, for which he can offer no support as to his misrepresentation of their credentials, "isn't error, however. It's large scale fraud." But enough of holding Mr. Cramer up to his own standards.... Mr. Cramer also asks why I attack him rather than explain Professor Belleiles' "false quote". That's because Professor Bellesiles has explained the quote, himself. No one pays me -- not even $2000 per year (net) to attack anyone. My position is actually simple, I agree with Professor Bellesiles' hypothesis (that there were a limited number of guns in the states during the period of the founding fathers. It's not even particularly controversial. Jefferson (in Query IX of his Notes on Virginia) noted that: "The law requires every militia-man to provide himself with the arms usual in the regular service. But this injunction was always indifferently complied with, and the arms they had have been so frequently called for to arm the regulars, that in the lower parts of the country they are entirely disarmed. In the middle country a fourth or fifth part of them may have such firelocks as they had provided to destroy the noxious animals which infest their farms; and on the western side of the Blue ridge they are generally armed with rifles." Patrick Henry's "let every man be armed" sure impressed Halbrook, but it is in the same speech that he notes Virginia's failure to accimplish that goal, in spite of it's efforts: "The great object is, that every man be armed. But can the people afford to pay for double sets of arms, &c.? Every one Who is able may have a gun. But we have learned, by experience, that, necessary as it is to have arms, and though our Assembly has, by a succession of laws for many years, endeavored to have the militia completely armed, it is still far from being the case." Professor Bellesiles may be guilty of sloppy record keeping, but it seems that it is Mr. Cramer and his ilk who have "an agenda" based on distorting the record.... Name: D.F.Beckley - 63.11.128.185 Tue Nov 20 13:09:29 2001 EST Comments: The fact that a writer has presented a work that is found to be riddled with such egregious and apparently indefensible errors is not the greatest cause for concern in this case. It happens when an author has a political agenda, is careless, or even fails to comprehend and interpret his source material. Fortunately for us laymen we have quasi policing of these rouges by esteemed and reputable critics, publishers, and organizations such as Gary Wills, Bancroft, Knopf, Emory U. and OAH. Thank goodness these people protect us from authors that would misrepresent facts and statistics that we laymen may never have the opportunity to verify for ourselves. And it's so refreshing to see that when they have mistakenly and blindly lauded heaping praise on a work of fiction portrayed by it's author as fact they are ever so quick to say,"Ya know, there may be something to this. Mr. and Mrs. Laypersons, we will look into these accusations and let you know what we find out". Their humility and literary integrity restores my blind faith in the printed word. (Heavy, heavy sarcasm obviously but the underlying sentiment more a cause for concern than Mr. Bellesiles original infraction). Name: Mike McDaniel - 168.55.201.8 Tue Nov 20 9:47:25 2001 EST Comments: Mr. John Bennett (posting on Nov. 19) observes that a wave of "deadly gun violence" is plaguing America and that Prof. Bellesiles is making important contributions to combatting that "plague." As a teacher of English, I find the political manipulation of language endlessly fascinating. "Gun violence?" How about "knife violence?" "Fist violence?" Or perhaps we could be accurate and honest and speak to the largest violence problem in America "motor vehicle violence." People, of course, commit violence, not inanimate objects. Mr. Bennett's support of Prof. Bellesiles is at least consistent. Both seem to have little appreciation for the accurate and honest use of English. That so many of the admittedly anti-gun movement have latched onto Prof. Bellesile's work as a virtual guiding light and holy grail speaks volumes. Sadly, unreproducible research does not add to the great social dialogue; rather it obstructs it. I will continue to look for Prof. Bellesile's refutation of his critics, but what he has produced in that regard thus far only serves to harm his position. Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Tue Nov 20 0:46:08 2001 EST Comments: For another review of Mr. Bellesiles published data in his book Arming America, I suggest that you refer to an article by James Lindgren - (BA cum laude, Yale University; JD, University of Chicago; Ph.D. Student, Sociology, University of Chicago), who is currently Professor of Law and Director, Demography of Diversity Project at Northwestern University. (Is Northwestern a “lesser state university”? I’m not sure). The paper is titled “Counting Guns in Early America” and is available through Mr. Lindgren’s (or is it Dr. Lindgren’s?) site at http://www.law.northwestern.edu/faculty/fulltime/Lindgren/Lindgren.html. That URL is his faculty page. To get to the article itself you will need to click on the link for “Counting Guns in Early America” on the page. Please note that this article is written in Adobe Acrobat so if you don’t have an Adobe Acrobat Reader you will need to download one off the Internet. The basic version of the Reader should be available free at www.adobe.com. You can also access this article on www.ssrn.com (Social Science Research Network) but you will need to download it. I don’t know if there is any cost associated with downloading it. The listed co-author of “Counting Guns” is Justin L. Heather, JD cum laude Northwestern University 2001. If for some reason the URL’s above don’t post correctly to this board then just get on www.google.com or some other search engine and look for Lindgren Northwestern Counting Guns and you should find the article. The article itself is about 60 pages long. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.193.114 Mon Nov 19 22:49:41 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Rosenberg thinks my characterization of his remarks about Bellesiles's work are inaccurate. Here's the whole two sentences in which Mr. Rosenberg expressed his concern about the problems of non-reproducibility of Bellesiles's work: "One would hope that any conscientious researcher, even in non-controversial (outside of academic circles) areas, would not report what he could not reproduce for other authentic researchers in the same field. In this respect, Professor Bellesiles' record keeping appears to be sorely lacking." If Mr. Rosenberg thinks that I have failed to capture the essence of his point, that's fine. Certainly there is a plausible claim that the nuance that he wanted conveyed escaped me. But no one can doubt that Bellesiles's inability to reproduce his results is part of what concerned Mr. Rosenberg. Compare this instead to Bellesiles's difficulties, which involve quoting not only primary sources, but his own book at p. 230 -- and those quotes are simply, utterly, false. It is certainly true that historians have certain standards of polite behavior when criticizing errors by their colleagues. What is wrong with Bellesiles's work isn't error, however. It's large scale fraud: dates altered, quotes changed, sources misrepresented on a gross level. I've given some examples in previous messages where you can look at images of Bellesiles's alteration of quotes. It is imperative that the historical profession police itself. What Professor Bellesiles has done is no different from Holocaust denial in terms of its dishonesty. That his work is popular for political reasons, I understand. But just because dishonesty is convenient, and because many of his critics, like myself, are not part of the old boys' club, is no reason for the manner in which historians are circling the wagons to protect a scoundrel. Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.193.114 Mon Nov 19 22:29:40 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Rosenberg needs to read what I wrote. I made it very clear that I do not make a living from writing "progun" materials. In a good year, all of my writing combined (some of which has nothing to do with gun control) grosses perhaps $2000 -- or about a week's wages at my profession as a software engineer. Furthermore, if Mr. Rosenberg had read some of my books, he would know that I have been critical of Stephen Halbrook's work also, which has some errors in it. I hasten to add, however, that Halbrook's errors, like those from a variety of both antigun and progun historians, are plausibly errors. Unlike Bellesiles's work, in reading both progun historians (Halbrook, Kates) and antigun historians (Carl T. Bogus, Lawrence Delbert Cress)I have not found hundreds of altered quotes, altered dates, and misrepresentations of sources. I have found more such examples in single paragraphs of Bellesiles's book than in all the other antigun scholarly works COMBINED. There comes a point where the errors are so severe, so overwhelmingly on one side, and so gross in their deceptive intent, that no honest person can continue to say that Bellesiles has made some mistakes. Mistakes would be scattered somewhat randomly; some of the mistakes would be in support of Bellesiles's thesis, some would be in opposition. In addition, when you find a mistake in a scholar's work, and you point it out, they either explain how the error happened, or they admit that something went wrong. Bellesiles hasn't done that. As I have pointed out earlier, Bellesiles's defense in OAH Newsletter misquotes his book in order to hide that p. 230 misquotes the Militia Act of 1792. Mr. Rosenberg seems more intent on attacking me than on explaining why Bellesiles has given a false quote from his own book. Why? Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Mon Nov 19 22:01:01 2001 EST Comments: BTw.... What most irritates about Mr. Cramer's Cramer's comment is that he distorts, even when the source is right there for all to see: CC: "Mr. Rosenberg's comments suggest that Bellesiles's research is "sorely lacking" because it is not reproducible." But that's CC's spin, not what I said, which was:
Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Mon Nov 19 21:37:56 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Cramer errs.... In fact, he *is* a "hired gun" -- someone like David Kopel, Stephen Halbrook or Don Kates, Jr., who makes an income pushing the pro-gun (and only pro-gun) agenda. His masters in history (from a lesser state university may separate him from Kates and Halbrook, who have "terminal" degrees in "Law Office History", but Mr. Cramer's lack of a final degree does not make him less a hired gun. I noted, in my earlier post, that one of Professor Bellesiles' mistakes is thinking that attacks on the research are, somehow, severable from attacks on the researcher. Mr. Cramer is the prime example of someone who attacks the research/er (when s/he) represents a threat to Mr. Cramer's position, but not when s/he distorts the facts to support Mr. Cramer's views (Kopel, Kates and Halbrook come to mind). It strikes me that the simplest test of an unbiased "researcher," is one who makes documentable statements (e.g., "Professor BHellesiles erred when he said ...."), versus the one who attributes motives he can not suuport (e.g., "...Bellesiles has altered and misrepresented...") Name: John Bennett - 24.247.125.160 Mon Nov 19 17:10:05 2001 EST Comments: Monday, November 19, 2001 Dear Dr. Bellesiles: Thank you for writing Arming America. You have shown enormous courage in writing a work concerning the realities of gun ownership in Colonial American life. I hope you will not be discouraged by the NRA. Our present gun culture, controlled and funded by these groups, has grown so radical, that anyone who dares to question NRA mythology, is attacked with all the venom money can buy. Your work has helped to clarify and educate citizens to the myths of the gun culture that poisons reasonable debate on this subject. I trust that you will continue to research this subject, and publish your observations. Scholarly research on this subject is vital in a growing effort to get some control over the deadly gun violence that continues to plague this country. I also hope that your university will continue to support you in your endeavors. You are appreciated. I look forward to reading more of your work in the future. Sincerely, John Bennett 1011 Crown Street Kalamazoo, MI 49006 616-344-6014 Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.193.114 Sun Nov 18 17:15:30 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Rosenberg's comments suggest that Bellesiles's research is "sorely lacking" because it is not reproducible. This makes it sound as though Bellesiles's work referred to documents that could not be located (such as the San Francisco probate records). But the biggest problem isn't the records that can't be found -- it is the records that CAN be found, and that Bellesiles has altered and misrepresented -- including Bellesiles's misquotation of his own book, in order to hide his citation of sources that directly contradict his claims. Furthermore, Mr. Rosenberg's claim that Bellesiles's critics are "hired guns" is simply not the case. I know most of the people that have been in the forefront of criticism of Bellesiles's incredibly sloppy work, and not a one of them is paid to do that work. Several are history or law professors; one is an undergraduate history student, and then there is me. I have sold a few articles to various magazines criticizing the severe accuracy problems with Bellesiles's work, but I am not a "hired gun." I make my living as a software engineer, and I write history books (obviously not the major part of my income). The implication that my goal is pointing out the massive fraud of Bellesiles's work is because I am a "hired gun" is simply false. Name: Michael Rosenberg - 24.4.189.50 Sat Nov 17 9:30:32 2001 EST Comments: It strikes me, as someone who has cited Professor Bellesiles' work, that what is "at play" here is the difference between a historian and a history buff (I am the latter). The historian is an orginal researcher who must meticulously report and document his sources, in the same manner as researchers in any field. The credibility of the historian rests on the accuracy of the reporting of actual findings. (His/her prestige rests on that accracy and the insight s/he brings to those findings.) It should be understood that expecting absolutely error-free research is an unattainable goal, but the overall accuracy of that research is the measure of the worth of the historian. It does no good for those of us who rely on secondary sources to use sources who lack credibility. For this reason, there can be no difference between the credibility of the researcher and the credibility of the research and the historian must maintain the same standards vis-a-vis his/her research that any researcher in any field must. I suspect that any researcher who delves into matters affecting current social issues will experience the sort of resposnes Professor Bellesiles has received and his association with Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose own research in firearms and violence should have, at least, made him aware of the scrutiny and variety of responses to be expected, should have alerted him to the extra care necessary to document his findings. One would hope that any conscientious researcher, even in non-controversial (outside of academic circles) areas, would not report what he could not reproduce for other authentic researchers in the same field. In this respect, Professor Bellesiles' record keeping appears to be sorely lacking. In my case, that is not a challange to overall accuracy of his research or his motives. But unfortunately, it does raise questions about his value as a source to history buffs such as myself -- and, unfortunately, achieves the objectives of the hired guns arrayed against him, which is, simply, to nullify his input in to the debate on current issues. Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Fri Nov 16 23:23:03 2001 EST Comments: Note to moderator of this board (if there is one). Please remove my previous two posts as they did not post correctly. I think your system has a problem with any text bracketed by the left and right arrows (i.e. the less than and greater than signs). Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Fri Nov 16 23:18:38 2001 EST Comments: Sorry. The portion of the preceeding portion that was contained in << & >> did not post correctly. It looked right on screen but did not come out that way. What it should have read was, Incorrect quotation: In his online article “Disarming the Critics” Mr. Bellesiles states Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Fri Nov 16 23:02:00 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Heath is correct that “This is not a forum for discussion of guns and public policy”. My reply to the poster MillionMomMarcher was overzealous for this forum and I apologize for wasting anyone’s time. The problem some people have with Mr. Bellesiles’ book (or at least what a forum dedicated to history research should be interested in) is not his politics, it’s his accuracy, which is the gist of what I said in my first point of my previous posting. Concerning accuracy and Mr. Heath’s comments. I have a copy of Arming America, it is listed as ISBN 0-375-40210-1 / LC 00-106191. It is listed as a First Edition copy. Let’s compare what Mr. Bellesiles states in his online article versus what actually appears in my copy of Arming America. To avoid confusion with multiple quotation marks I’ll use << & >> to set off complete passages taken directly from Arming America or from Mr. Bellesiles article. This way any internal quotation marks will appear unchanged. What I’m concerned with here is inaccurate and incomplete (and thereby potentially misleading) quotations. I double-checked the following before posting this so hopefully there are no typos, however, if there are, someone please post a correction. Incorrect quotation: In his online article “Disarming the Critics” Mr. Bellesiles states < Name: Norman Heath - 199.170.68.203 Fri Nov 16 19:25:50 2001 EST Comments: This is not a forum for discussion of guns and public policy. Please take that conversation elsewhere. Michael Bellesiles has been obliged to defend his book. That is what we are discussing in this forum. His defense is not only inadequate, but he compounds his predicament by falsely representing a quote which he says appears in the original edition of his book; the passage he quotes in this online defense does NOT appear in the original edition of his book. Compare the quote as it appears in his online column, attributed to the Militia Act of 1803, to the quote which actually appears in his book, and which has been misrepresented in his explanatory column. Bellesiles' book offered a false quote, and a false citation to an authoritative source. Now, by way of defending himself, he falsely claims to have published an accurate quote and citation, but of a statute other than what he intended. In fact, the quote that appeared in his book was a conflation of two separate statutes, and not faithful to either. Nor was the citation accurate, as he now claims. Previously, he has admitted the inauthenticity of the quote, and blamed it on his mistaken reliance on a secondary source. Now he claims that there is in no discrepancy at all. In fact there are three discrepancies: 1)his original false quote and citation; 2) his subsequent false attribution to a secondary source not cited in his book; 3)his current false claim to have correctly quoted and cited the 1803 act. Every time Prof. Bellesiles opens his mouth to explain another discrepancy, he digs himself in deeper. These kinds of repeated self-contradictions are usually an indicator of somebody who cannot remember which story he told to whom on a given occasion. At the very least, however, one would expect that a historian could accurately report what he himself had written in his own book. Prof. Bellesiles fails even at this. He has been obliged to defend his professional conduct; this is a grave matter, and surely warrants the care necessary to avoid perpetrating further misrepresentations. If, at this critical juncture, Prof. Bellesiles cannot be bothered do better than his current effort, one can hardly dispute the claims of his detractors that the truth is of little consequence to him. Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Wed Nov 14 3:54:24 2001 EST Comments: Two ideas regarding the comments from “MillionMomMarcher”: This is either a letter from a rabid “gun rights” supporter masquerading as a MMM, or, 2) it’s an actual MMM. If it’s 1) – which I think has about a 99% chance of being true, you really don’t need to do things like that. It’s dishonest, unnecessary and in my opinion a waste of your time. If you can come up with something like that you should try your hand at screenwriting or something. If it’s 2) – And at the risk of completely wasting my time, I would like to offer some comments regarding your posting. You didn’t mention all of the following in your little rant; I just wanted to bring them to your attention. FIRST OF ALL (and I’m not Internet shouting here, I’m just trying to make these individual comments stand out for legibility). - The criticism directed towards the book Arming America and Mr. Bellesiles is primarily NOT over his personal view, whatever it may be, of the Second Amendment or the role of firearms in today’s society. The criticism is directed at his accuracy. The criticism of Mr. Bellesiles book is one of alleged inaccuracy, misquoted quotations, misleading and incomplete quotations and potentially, fraudulent reference to sources that don’t even exist. Quite simply, the criticism of Bellesiles book is that it’s “bad”, as in “inaccurate”, history. If you think that altering history to conform to the needs of the present is a good idea than go read 1984 by George Orwell. SECOND – the number of “people” that actually owned firearms at the time the Second Amendment was ratified is no more relevant to the Second Amendment today than the number of “people” that owned a printing press is relevant to the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of the press. Advocating such a viewpoint, which many earlier supporters of Bellesiles’s book essentially did by saying that it “exposes the fraud” or whatever of the Second Amendment, is a very dangerous precedent. I personally wouldn’t my individual right to invoke a jury trial to depend on the actual percentage of people that had been tried by a jury trial in 1787. THIRD – Advocating outlawing all firearms and throwing everyone in jail who currently owns one (which would take our prison population from roughly two million to about 100 million) is not the way to win gunowners, or any reasonable person, over to your side of the debate. Most anti-gun (or at least anti-gun ownership for individuals) groups claim that they only want “safety” or “reasonable gun-laws”. To have a member of such an organization (MMM) such as yourself openly advocate confiscation of guns and jailing of gun owners only hurts whatever reasonable message you may be trying to get across. FOURTH – One reason that Bellesiles’s book has garnered a lot of criticism is partly because it won a prize, allegedly for excellence in history and hence the book has achieved a higher profile. And as the Japanese say, it’s the nail that sticks up that gets hammered down. If the criticisms of Arming America’s accuracy are correct than it disparages all of the previous winners of that prize. FIFTH – Yes the Constitution does have other internal safeguards to protect our freedom. We have freedom of speech and the press so why don’t we just get rid of all the Amendments past number one, like search and seizure, and jury trials? Or how about the one guaranteeing women the right to vote? And what happens when those freedoms are ignored and violated by the same government that allegedly is sworn to protect them? Couldn’t happen here? SIXTH – Oops, you state that you’d like to “forbid NRA-based criticism towards people who are only trying to help like Dr. Bellisiles [sic]” so I guess you want to repeal the First Amendment freedom of speech and of the press also. Are do you only want to repeal it for the people that don’t agree with your viewpoint? (By the way, [sic] means “spelled in context”, which means that you misspelled Mr. Bellesiles’ name. Perhaps the emotions of the moment got the better of you. Also, while Mr. Bellesiles might have a Ph.D. in History, it is not common practice to refer to these individuals as “Dr.”. And just because a “Dr.” said something does not make it correct). SEVENTH – You also state that “Common sense requires only uniformed soldiers, police, and other agents of the state have access to firearms”. Unfortunately the vast majority of people who have died in the past century as a result of firearms injuries have died at the hands of their own government. In other words “soldiers, police, and other agents of the state” killed them. Surprise! (And I’m not anti-cop or anti-soldier either, I have friends and family members who are cops and soldiers, but the facts of history are the facts of history). Do the names Khmer Rouge and Cambodia ring a bill? How about the MILLIONS of people that were killed in Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany or the Cultural Revolution in Maoist Mainland China? It wasn’t hunters, sportsmen, “gangbangers” or NRA members that murdered these MILLIONS of people. Their own government murdered them. By the way, those places didn’t have the Second Amendment. Too bad for them, better luck next time. Oops, they can’t play the game again because now they’re dead. Get on the Internet and find the essay “Of Holocausts and Gun Control” by Daniel Polsby published in the Fall 1997 Washington University Law Quarterly. It’s an interesting read if you think that only “soldiers, police, and other agents of the state” should have guns. EIGHTH – And this is a common misperception, the police and the State generally have no legal requirement to protect you the individual citizen. Numerous court decisions have spoken to this effect. So if the police aren’t legally required to protect you, and they fail to do so, what do you do now? And if you think it’s immoral to defend yourself or your children with potentially lethal force than how can you morally ask someone else, such as the police, to do it for you? This does not mean for society to degenerate into vigilantism and anarchy or that “shoot first, ask questions later” is the best policy to follow. It also does not mean that we can’t have laws restricting some individuals (such as convicted felons) from owning guns or have other laws regarding firearms. But individuals do a have an inherent natural right to self-defense and for many people the only realistic means of that self-defense is a gun. Have a nice day. Name: MillionMomMarcher - 209.100.92.33 Wed Nov 14 0:36:06 2001 EST Comments: Those who claim that the 2nd amendment was given to because we might someday need guns to use against an oppressive government forget that Constitution has internal safeguards to protect our freedoms. To help ensure our happiness and safety we must ban and seize all guns from private hands, and forbid NRA-based criticism towards people who are only trying to help like Dr. Bellisiles. If you don't like this then that proves you are on the side of the killers with the guns and you should be put in jail along side all the gangbangers and other gun nuts. Common sense requires only uniformed soldiers, police, and other agents of the state have access to firearms and no person should be able to challenge this. Name: Laurence A. Jarvik, Ph.D. - 138.88.105.212 Tue Nov 13 16:12:00 2001 EST Comments: Are some historians more equal than others? Why tie the resolution to one particular author, unless the organization is playing favorites? Can some historians with disfavored views be denounced with passion -- but not others with favored views? Isn't that the definition of political correctness? Name: Clayton E. Cramer - 216.174.193.114 Tue Nov 13 13:06:59 2001 EST Comments: Professor Bellesiles's defense of his book become more comical with the moment. He admits an "error" on p. 230, but even here, his inability to read is showing: "In discussing the Militia Act of 1792, I quote the 1803 amendment to this act that 'every citizen so enrolled, shall be constantly provided with arms, accoutrements, and ammunition.' The quotation and its citation are both correct." Except that isn't what he said on p. 230. What he quoted was "every citizen so enrolled, shall ... be constantly provided with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints" which is a conflation of the Militia Act of 1792 and the Militia Act of 1803. Bellesiles cites the Militia Act of 1792 in both _U.S. Statutes_ 1:271-74 and _Debates and Proceedings in the Congress_ 3:1392-95 -- and both agree with each other, and disagree with his "quote." Furthermore, Bellesiles does not cite the Militia Act of 1803, so his claim that the quote and the citation are correct is wrong as well. In in doubt, you can see the actual images of both these statutes on my web page, at the bottom of http://www.claytoncramer.com/primary.html#MilitiaLaws. Unfortunately, this is not just one isolated example. There are HUNDREDS of such examples of quotes altered, dates changed, and sources misrepresented throughout Bellesiles's book, and consistently these "errors" are in the same direction. If you want to see a few gross examples, with images of both Bellesiles's claim, and images of the sources that he has altered or misrepresented to make his case, visit http://www.claytoncramer.com/columbia.18apr01.htm. The historical profession, unfortunately, seems almost incapable of dealing with a charlatan in their midst. Bellesiles has changed his story about some of these matters repeatedly, relying on the unwillingness of most historians to even CONSIDER the possibility that one of their own is a fraud. I call Bellesiles a fraud with full awareness that anything but conclusive proof would lead to a libel suit. He does not dare, because the evidence is so overwhelming: _Arming America_ is a mass of intentional lies, and it is easy to prove. Name: nheath - 199.170.68.49 Mon Nov 12 12:16:26 2001 EST Comments: Professor Bellesiles' new explanation for his misquote of the 1792 Militia Act compounds his situation by making yet another false assertion while at the same time contradicting his previous excuses. The language quoted in the original edition of his book is *not* from the 1803 act, as he now claims. Nor has he correctly cited it, ever. It is a conflation of language from both the 1792 and 1803 acts. What he now claims is an error of "context" actually involves a mis-quote, a mis-cite, and a series of inconsistent mis-explanations. Previously, Bellesiles has admitted that the language came not from the statute he cited in the book, nor from the 1803 statue, but rather from a compendium of militia law which he refuses to properly identify, giving on alternate occasions publication dates of either 1836 or 1815, and little or no other necessary information. After a good deal of searching, I found an 1851 containing the conflated language, but it was clearly marked by the editors as being an alteration of the original text of the statute. Even if Bellesiles had lifted the false quote from this compendium, he has no excuse for having done so, nor for citing the authoritative source when he should have cited the compendium, nor for failing to properly identify, when explaining this discrepancy, the compendium(s) which he claims or claimed were the actual source of the false quote. It may also bear pointing out that the 1803 act did *not*, as Bellesiles now claims, amend the self-arming provision of the 1792 act. In 1812, for example, a Massachusetts militia man was prosecuted for failing to provide himself with arms as required under both the 1792 *and* 1803 acts. The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts ruled that the proper construction was that the militia man, once enrolled, was given 6 months to obtain the arms (as stipulated in the 1792 act) but was thereafter required by the 1803 act to in be in constant ownership of ("be constantly provided with") those arms. Commonwealth v. Stephen Annis 9 Mass. 31. Professor Bellesiles could be forgiven if he were guilty only of misinterpreting the 1803 Act. I do not, however, see where he can be excused for misquoting the 1792 Act, mis-citing the source of his quote, refusing to reveal the actual source after admitting the mis-cite, and now claiming that the passage as quoted can actually be found in the 1803 Act. It cannot be found there. Professor Bellesiles has previously *admitted* that the quote cannot be found there. Called to defend his reputation, the major discrepancy Bellesiles addresses becomes the occasion for a false claim which can only be deliberate, because Bellesiles has previously *admitted* that he knows it is false. He has already admitted that the language quoted in his book is not to be found in either statute, but in a conflation of both. Now he claims otherwise. And this one example is but a tiny portion of not only the inaccuracies in his book, but also of the inconsistencies in his explanations. Name: Joseph DiGiacomo - 168.143.112.8 Sun Nov 11 15:24:03 2001 EST Comments: Bellesiles does not refute a single charge made by his critics. 1. Bellesiles pretended to count hundreds of probate records in San Francisco that were destroyed in the 1906 earthquake. He three times confirmed that he read them at the Superior Courthouse. He told the Chronicle of Higher Education in September that he had located them. Now he changed his story again and can't produce them. 2. The Boston Globe caught Bellesiles altering Vermont records on his website to make guns appear old or broken. Bellesiles now pretends that the Globe was concerned with trivial errors by altering the text of the Globe's criticisms. He just can't face the Globe's charges honestly because they are true. 3. Bellesiles does not address any of the widely known academic criticisms of the book--nonexistent wills in Providence, changed condition of guns there, made-up homicide counts in Plymouth and Vermont, invented stories about axes as weapons and about Benedict Arnold's men being unarmed, etc. 4. Bellesiles would rather give speeches about his being hounded and respond to criticisms that no one has ever made than answer the serious claims of academics. 5. Not one critical claim that is made in serious scholarship appearing in the Texas Law Review, Reviews in American History, or the William & Mary Law Review is even mentioned in the OAH Newsletter. Name: John C. Gardner - 24.4.83.171 Fri Nov 9 20:48:03 2001 EST Comments: Your article certainly falls far short of dealing adequately with the many sound criticisms of your polemic about guns in early America. Your bias was shown clearly the March 27, 2000 letter to C. Heston --- a letter to which you were a signatory. You've been caught, sir! For heaven's sake, stop writing about guns! Name: Neal Horan - 63.214.117.134 Fri Nov 9 20:22:17 2001 EST Comments: I note that the statement deploring ad hominem attacks directed at Michael Bellesiles immediately follows the one condemning "lying and deception by professors and teachers". Is this juxtaposition mere happenstance, or does OAH intend to actively investigate the numerous and credible questions raised concerning the accuracy and legitimacy of Mr. Bellesiles's work? If not, then I submit that OAH is derelict in its duty to uphold those very principles (truth, honesty, and integrity) that it so piously endorses. If the allegations against Mr. Bellesiles are true and OAH does nothing to look into them, the organization has become, in effect, an accessory after the fact to academic fraud. Name: Jon - 144.96.100.170 Fri Nov 9 13:05:14 2001 EST Comments: As the comments here agree, the core academic criticisms of Arming America have yet to be addressed by Bellseslies. Academics have checked the primary sources cited in Arming America and found guns were in fact plentiful within probate records and rarely listed as in poor condition. Belleslies has claimed that low auction prices are a reason to record a gun as in poor condition. Could it not be low prices reflect and abundance of guns? At minimum, his peculiar method of data interpretation should have been disclosed in his book. As evidence his critics are wrong, he names individuals that gave glowing reviews of the book. Yet, when some of his supposed supporters were contacted by Melissa Seckora of National Review, “All were either negative about his work — though stopping short of accusing him of outright fraud — or cautious in their praise.” Further, “… almost none of those who continue to support Bellesiles has bothered to explore the criticism of him. None could identify a single criticism as false.” (see her article in National Review). Finally, he is upset that the NRA opposes his book and is critical of him. This is a diversion away from the main issue but I’ll fall for it. Anyone can read the back cover of the book and the introduction over the Internet. The back cover of his book says in a quote that “Michael A Bellesiles is the NRA’s worse nightmare.” His introduction states “How did we acquire a culture in which Santa Claus gives a six-year-old boy a shotgun for Christmas? For Christmas!” I take this to mean Christmas and guns don’t mix because Christmas is good/moral and guns are bad/immoral. Such anti-gun language is peppered throughout the introduction. “There are far fewer bookstores and schools than gunshops” Belleslies laments. Faced with such rhetoric, that the NRA has commented on the book is not surprising. Name: Charles Riggs, RN - 63.148.157.3 Fri Nov 9 7:37:28 2001 EST Comments: Having read most of the criticisms of Mr. Belleisle's book, and having seen how thoroughly his attempted defenses of it have been debunked, I read with interest his schoolboy attempt to deflect criticisms in this piece on the OAH page. The man is a fraud in the worst sense. He claims to have no antigun agenda but his comments in interviews have made plain his cozy acquaintance with the gun-haters in this country and his disdain for the those he associates with the NRA. He tries to defend his work with 'the dog ate my homework' while knowledgeable persons are pointing out that some records he purports to have used, such as those in California, don't even EXIST! While I have no use for those who've engaged in personal attacks or threats on the man, I have less tolerance for his evasions and obfuscations. His book was most certainly created with an agenda in mind, and have so many of those who wish to see an end to private firearms ownership, he played fast and loose with facts and history and when caught out tried to play the poor oppressed scholar. The man is a scoundrel. I look forward to his time in the public pillory at Emory. He has earned it. Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Fri Nov 9 1:29:40 2001 EST Comments: I'm still reading through Arming America (intra-library loan is a great thing) and simultaneously reading through the list of alleged errors and omissions in the book that I have gotten from several sources (the Intranet is also a great thing). So I can't pass final judgement on the book yet. I do think Mr. Bellesiles made an error in not looking for more corroborating evidence of his conclusions. Probate records are fine but how many cast iron skillets, Bibles, etc. were listed in them back then? Almost every household would have had these items, just like most every household today has a hair dryer, a toilet, etc. I'm not a lawyer but I'm guessing that hair dryers and toilets don't show up very often in modern day probate records. Sadly, the situation somewhat reminds me of a recent documentary I saw regarding Stalin. It seems that some photos of Lenin showed him standing by Leon Trotsky. After Stalin assumed power and Trotsky was no longer in favor, Trotsky had somehow been painted out of that very same photograph. Stalin was rewriting history on purpose. I hope Mr. Bellesiles was not trying to do the same thing. (I am NOT in any way equating Mr. Bellesiles with Stalin either, it's just an historical analogy that seemed apropos). Anything that occurred before you were born, in a sense never happened. This is the main reason that historical accuracy is so important. I don't personally know that the Holocaust happened because I wasn't there. I do know it happened because of historians. It's a very bad thing that it occurred but it would be made worst if it was forgotten. What did Santayana say about those that do not remember the past? Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Fri Nov 9 0:39:37 2001 EST Comments: Others have covered in great detail the alleged errors in Arming America so I won't repeat them. Out of curiosity however I got onto Google.com and put in words that might be related to the availability of functioning firearms in Revolutionary America. These words would include terms for firearms, such as rifle, musket, etc. and names of people such as Washington, Jefferson, etc. In about an hour I came up with several that would cause me to doubt Mr. Bellesiles conclusions. Here's a few. This one can be found on the viginia.edu site. Thomas Jefferson letter to Jacob J. Brown 1808 - "I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm-house." - My comments - note Mr. Jefferson's shock at hearing of, not an abundance, but a lack of firearms in any area of the country, particular of something considered as a "first necessaries [sic]" of a farmhouse. Here's another from sc.edu website (South Carolina I believe). It's from Baron Steuben (who trained many of America's recruits in military discipline) to General Nathanael Greene (who was one of the top generals of the Revolutionary War and reported directly to General Washington). "Richmond [Va.] 28 Jany 1781 Dear General << The Militia of the Counties adjacent to the River I have orderd to be relievd by others from the back Country and as a great part of these will bring Rifles with them I have orderd the spare Arms to be collected & Kept on Waggons ready to Arm the Militia of the Vicinity should we be in want of them. >> With great respect & esteem I am Dr General Your Mo: Obed Servt Steuben" See abstract for footnotes. Letter signed (MiU-C) 4 pp. Recommended Citation: The Papers of General Nathanael Greene, ed. Dennis Conrad et al. (Columbia, S.C.: Model Editions Partnership, 1999). Full texts of documents calendared in The Papers of General Nathanael Greene (Chapel Hill, N.C.: University of North Carolina Press, 1994), Vol. 7, pp. 152-289. http://adh.sc.edu [Accessed (04Oct01 - supply date here)] - My comments - note that due to space limitions on this board this is just an excerpt of the letter. Note also that the men from the back Country would bring Rifles with them. Presumably these were their own rifles. Or did the state of Virginia keep large stocks of government owned arms in armories out in "the back Country"? Also note the phrase "should we be in want of them", not "since we will be in want of them". Meaning that the author of the letter was not expecting to be lacking firearms. Since no military commander considers it a bad thing to have too many soldiers, what "in want of them" means is in "want of arms". The author of this letter presumes that many of the militia will appear armed, presumably bearing their own personal arms, not those just recently issued to them by the government. The author also presumes that they will have extra firearms left over in case some soldiers show up unprepared. Here's one more, same website: This one is from Gen'l Thomas Sumter, also to General Greene: "From General Thomas Sumter Mr Alex[ande]rs four Miles East of Charlotte [N.C.] 31st January 1781 << By the latest accounts, the people in Most parts of So. Carolina Appear Disposed to Take up Arms against the British. Small Bodies are Colecting in Several places for that purpose. >> - Again this is an excerpt of the letter. Question - How could the people "Take up Arms against the British" if the people didn't own any Arms to begin with? If Arms were only stored in large central Government armories then why would "small bodies of people" be "collecting in several places"? How many armories did the state of South Carolina have? One on every street corner? Maybe all of these people went out to the "back country" of Virginia and picked up their rifles. This quotation presumes that "the People" brought their own privately owned firearms with them and that they did not need to have them supplied by others. I found these in about ONE HOUR of research. Based on just this it would lead me to take with a large grain of salt the conclusion that firearms were scarce and rarely functional in early America. Name: Casey Johnson - 24.163.146.208 Thu Nov 8 23:55:31 2001 EST Comments: It is sad that Mr. Bellesiles was subjected to harassment for his book. That type of thing really is not needed in a free (currently at least) society. But Mr. Bellesiles's focus on his personal torment does not address the main issue, that his work is full of alledged errors, misrepresentations and fabrications. This is the real problem. If you had, in his own words, "devoted ten years to researching" this topic would you really only have one copy of your notes? Isn't that by itself a sign of sloppy research? Many businesses keep an extra set of records in a secure location. Many government records also have extra copies kept. If he's not hiding something than he must at least admit to being extremely careless. This carelessness does not make me particularly confident of his accuracy. Name: Mike McDaniel - 208.19.250.201 Thu Nov 8 18:13:19 2001 EST Comments: I find it interesting that Professor Bellesiles did not, in fact, address very specific and voluminous examples of factual error, misrepresentation and similar issues that have been pointed out, not by hostile and careless sources, but by careful and meticulous historians such as Joyce Lee Malcom, Clayton Cramer, Prof. John Lott, David Kopel and many others. Prof. Bellesiles, in choosing to address only a tiny portion of the valid criticisms of his work makes the best possible case for his critics. His failure to uphold even the most rudimentary standards of research record keeping and his resulting inability to provide data sets and related documents to support his contentions and conclusions is inexcusable. Prof. Bellesiles' work is so compromised as to be valueless and he has yet to answer his critics in any academically credible way. Name: mark - 205.143.51.254 Thu Nov 8 18:07:00 2001 EST Comments: wah (as in crying becuase you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar) Name: Bov Irvine - 12.26.149.240 Thu Nov 8 17:30:31 2001 EST Comments: Mr. Bellesiles conclusions are absurd. The ARMED militia at Lexington and Concord should be proof enough. Name: AnEducatedPerson - 151.106.28.117 Thu Nov 8 15:27:49 2001 EST Comments: He fabricated historical facts, whether for a political cause or not, we must assume that his research is fraudulent and therefore not worthy of historical representation. Further, the man is a liar, and when confronted with such facts, hides from the truth and lays blame on others. That fact that the Organization of American Historians defends him or his work, simply overlays his discredit upon the entire organization. Defending a liar, makes one a liar. Next time a researcher wants to interpret historical documents by filling in the blanks or subjectively interpreting the meaning, they put them selves in the same category as political or an agenda movement and divorce them selves from academic standing. Name: M MacGregor - 207.104.47.251 Thu Nov 8 14:58:46 2001 EST Comments: the man is a liar Name: james harp - 64.90.8.150 Thu Nov 8 14:21:11 2001 EST Comments: michael bellesiles is a jerk, a pawn, and a lackey for the anti-constitutional socialists in the united states. his book is just so much equine scatology and so is he. we need to run such liars OUT of this country. Name: John Daugherty - 149.59.105.1 Thu Nov 8 12:40:31 2001 EST Comments: This man is a fraud, as is his so called research. Name: Robert Camp - 66.156.8.241 Thu Nov 8 12:05:56 2001 EST Comments: Lame. The good professor spends most of his "defense" quibling about minor points after saying at the beggining that he not going to address the major points. Oh, by the way, did anybody read this that believes his book to be defensible? It appears not. Name: Robert Chafin - 160.69.1.136 Thu Nov 8 10:42:41 2001 EST Comments: Michael Bellesiles' discussion of his 'lost' source records sounds remarkably like the schoolboy's "the dog ate my homework" defense. Name: Matthew H. Riley - 204.60.61.233 Thu Nov 8 10:14:54 2001 EST Comments: As a member of Phi Alpha Theta from my undergraduate days and one who has done some research into the probate records of New hampshire dating to the late 1700's and early 1800's I find your comments supporting your book to be disingenuous at best. It is not reasonable for a purported scholar to engage in ad hominum attacks on public and private figures who are not historians as the primary issue is one of academic integrity. You stand accused of falsifying citations and your response is that a flood destroyed your notes. Would any undergraduate who presented such an excuse for inaccurate citation be allowed a pass. Your book specifically cited San Francisco probate documents that do not exist in San Francisco. Your citations state they exist in San Francisco. Other researchers following your citations have reported that your statements of what the sources contain are untrue. An Historian has a responsibility for accurate research above al else. When the thesis of a work is dependant upon that research and any part of it proves false and quite probably fraudulent then clearly that historian has been proven unworthy of the title and as such should be stripped of all honors and awards from all historical societies. Further such a person is clearly inqualified to teach history to anyone. The issue is the accuracy and reasonable diligence in the publication of this work. By attempting to lump those who question these aspects with those that may or may not have called you some perjorative names you are trying merely to obfiscate the issues. The issue is in simple terms your honesty as an historian a case has been presented that you are simply a liar in your supposed work. Unless and until that case is refuted your attempts at obfuscation must be considered simply as further evidence of your unfitness to continue in this profession. Name: J. Terry Riebling - 209.195.145.102 Thu Nov 8 9:56:38 2001 EST Comments: Dr. Bellesiles, I appresiate the level of research required and performed in order for you to "capture" the level of detail and information used to formulate your recent view of American firearms ownership. I also applaud you on your thorough explication and documentation of the facts as you discovered them. However I would like to suggest that there is perhaps another avenue that might add to your volume of research. As has been done for decades, I suggest that you consider first person, oral histories of firearms. I will use myself as a "subject." My great, great uncles left Germany in the 1890's to avoid what they saw as the approach of fascism. They chose to go to Africa to farm, manufacture cast iron products, and to "try their hand" at whatever would, or might be, profitable enough to support a rather large family. They did, as we have the reciepts, take firearms with them. Of the family that stayed in Germany, and survived WWI, several followed these interepid souls into the bush that was Africa after the war, in 1930 specifically. These intrepids also took firearms as part of the necessary "tools" needed to live far beyond the edge of civilization. I have been fortunate in that I have been the recipient of their rifles at their death. There was no probate, there are no records of these rifles coming to my hands. These are only a very, very small sample of how firearms are treated by,I would suggest, based on my personal, first hand, face-to-face research with over 100 firearms owners, by most family members. As do many other personal possessions, firearms are passed from father to son or daughter, grandson or granddaughter, brother to brother, uncle to nephew, etc., with no more of a "trail" of possession other than the knowledge that "Grand-dad took this old rifle to Africa in 1884." This is, unfortunatly I believe, why your book has developed such a maelstrom of discourse and refute. I do believe that you have ignored the most fertile area of the question of firearms ownership - the individuals that owned them and their heirs. Unquestionably there are no easy, or even "quantifiable" means to verify oral traditions, but historians have made use of such for quite some time. You might be well rewarded by making use of original research, it certainly be interesting. Best Regards,. Name: Robert E. Schafer - 192.31.106.34 Comments: As is often the case when attempting to refute ethical charges, Mr. Bellisles tries to bury the real issue behind a smokescreen of irrelevancy. Did he or did he not claim to have researched source files he did not actually review? His ruined notes might have resolved that, but the notes themselves are not the issue. According to other reports, the source material he claims to have reviewed does not exist. That fact, if true, invalidates ALL of his research as that of an unethical pseudo-historian who invents rather than reports. His book becomes the fiction of Forrest Gump, inserting a lie into a true context still results in a lie. Name: John Carroll - 206.99.186.34 Comments: It is a fallacy of logic to argue the general from a specific. In this case the Professor has posited an argument that since there are very few instances of guns having been willed to heirs, there must have been few guns. He conveniently dismisses/hides/obstructs the records which show that guns were in fact willed in large numbers, in order to preserve his bizarre hypothesis. This is scientifically dishonest and historical revisionism of the worst kind. Then again, to reiterate, he is arguing, based on faulty/selective and specific instances, to the general. (i.e. I looked in the northern woods of Maine and found few roads, therefore there are few cars in the United States) My first guns were given me as gifts and hand-me-downs, though my father and brothers who bequeathed them are still quite living and of sound minds and bodies. I can just as easily argue that in fact this is the normal process by which guns are passed down. Every gun owner I have ever known has owned a gun which their father, mother or relative gave to them. Bellisiles is tragically misguided, both in his ability to ferret out the truth, and in his transparent, political, ulterior motives. Name: William W. Webb - 56.0.96.18 Comments: The truism 'If you got the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you got the law, pound the law; if you have neither, pound the table.' applies here. And it is obvious to anyone who has reviewed both Mr. Bellesiles' assertions and the criticisms thereof that he is exercising his only remaining option: to pound the table. Name: Wesley E. Lively - 198.26.130.38 Comments: Bellesiles is pushing his agenda by using dishonest methodology and fraudulent data. He deserves to be condemned for that, and will receive no sympathy from this quarter. Name: Brad Tyler - 209.178.164.162 Comments: Bellesiles complains his critics began before he published his book. That is a deceitful attack on his critics. Years before Bellesiles book came out he published an article which contained the core ideas of his book. It seems Bellesiles' defense rests on the faint hope of support from people ignorant of his books content and ignorant of the statements of his critics. Name: Robert Lundquist - 32.101.129.133 Comments: Michael A. Bellesiles writes mightily how all these people are picking on him, but he does very little to refute the very credible charges against him. I think Arming America's link of probate records to gun ownership is tenuous at best. When it is linked with too many errors, errors aways showing less guns, never errors showing more guns it becomes obvious that lies are being told. The old "dog ate my homework" lie really puts it over the top. Michael A. Bellesiles should just go away. He has been caught in a lie and thinks he can lie his way out of it, he can't. Name: Veritas... - 209.100.92.113 Comments: Source for the following info can be found at http://www.gunowners.org/optb.htm, chapter 14 of the 17 part case against Dr. Bellesiles. All 17 chapters add up to a rather damning indictment against the good doctor's work. -------------------------------- But, as is all too often the case, the way Bellesiles tells things does not appear to be the way events actually occurred. The Emory Report (May 8, 2000, Volume 52, No. 32), which is published by the administration of the University, says, in part: "On the evening of Sunday, April 2, a connector on a sprinkler main broke on the building's third floor. Contractors had been working on the plumbing. When the flow of the water was finally cut off about 25 minutes later, standing water was two inches deep in some places, and practically no part of Bowden Hall escaped completely dry." Now, if a scholar at a university had all of his notes destroyed for a well-known book which took more than 10 years to write -- as Arming America did -- you'd think this would be big news and a lot of folks would know about such a disaster. But, we've been unable to confirm Belllesiles' story. In fact, we've found much evidence to contradict his claim. For example, the previously mentioned Emory Report quotes Janice Mohlhenrich, preservation coordinator for Emory University, as saying of the Bowden Hall Flood: "We were able to look at things that professors thought were irretrievably lost, but we looked at them and said, 'Sure, we can fix this.'" In an interview, when asked about the extent of damage to Bellesiles' materials, Mohlhenrich said: "I don't know. I know that we brought a number of his things over to the preservation lab and dried them out for him." Q: Did Bellesiles bring a lot of stuff to you? A: "No, not a great deal." In a story about the flood in the Emory student newspaper The Wheel, four professors were mentioned whose offices were in Bowden Hall. Bellesiles is not mentioned. In an interview, Barney Gimbel, editor of The Wheel who wrote the story about the Bowden Hall flood, was asked: "Are you aware of any professors who had serious and major damage to any of their work?" He replied: "No.... It really wasn't that bad of a flood in all reality." He says he has never heard the story about all of Bellesiles' notes being destroyed. Indeed, he says that, at the time, he called Bellesiles but Bellesiles never returned his call. He adds, regarding Bellesiles: "[He's] not a very friendly person. I can say that because I had a class with him. He's a very snide guy. He's very full of himself. He's a prima donna." History Professor Patrick Allitt, who also has an office in Bowden Hall, tells us no, he, too, never heard from Bellesiles or anybody else that all of Bellesiles' notes were destroyed. Dr. Walter Adamson is head of the History Department at Emory. In an interview, he tells us that the only person he remembers as sustaining damage from the flood was Associate Professor Cynthia Patterson who had some photos of Greece destroyed. When asked if he was aware of Bellesiles saying that all of his notes for Arming America were destroyed?, he says: "No, I'm not aware of any damage that substantial." He adds that 100,000 pages of notes "sounds like more than anybody really accumulates." Dr. Adamson refers us to Rosalyn Page, the History Department's administrative assistant in charge of dealing with insurance claims filed by professors who had materials damaged in the Bowden Hall flood. In an interview, Page -- who says that all insurance claims have come through her -- says: "We were very, very fortunate in that all of the contents [damaged] were all replaceable and repairable." Q: "Do you know if any professors suffered any major damage to their works, to their notes?" A: "Not that I know of. I assume if that was the case, you know, I would know." Q: "Do you know Professor Bellesiles?" A: "Yes, he's in our Department." Q: "Did he make any kind of claim as as you know?" A: "Yes, he had some materials that needed to be replaced." Q: "Was it much damage?" A: "No. Like I say, we were very fortunate. Most people didn't have a whole lot of things." Q: "And you are thoroughly familiar with everyone who filed a claim and everybody's damage?" A: "Right." Q: "So, you know of no one in the History Department who suffered any damage to his work?" A: "Right." Q: "And you would know if such major damage was suffered by any professor?" A: "Right." Finally, David King is senior vice president of Disaster Services Incorporate, the firm who cleaned up and dried out Bowden Hall. He was first on the scene and went office-to-office to see the flood damage. In an interview, he tells us he'd "be shocked if anything was destroyed, to be honest with you." He agrees with preservation coordinator Mohlhenrich who says that most of what was damaged was saved. Hmmmmm. "To be honest" with us, eh? Sounds like, from what we've been able to learn, that, once again, Michael A. Bellesiles hasn't been. Name: Travis McGee - 216.86.130.152 Comments: It's most gratifying to see the trapped liar Bellesiles squirming like an insect trapped on a mounting pin. But it's really rather pathetic: the dog ate my homework, the pipes pulped my nonexistant notes (from the archives which I claimed to research but which did not exost). Bellesiles is a fraud, and now a joke. Name: David Fabricius - 209.240.222.132 Comments: His notes were "destroyed in a flood"?? Give me a break! What woud happen to some undergraduate who used that excuse about a falsified term paper? Name: John Armor, Esq. - 63.68.34.86 Comments: As a Supreme Court practitioner and a former Professor of Political Science, I have these comments abou this article. An historian who lies about history is no different from a surgeon who amputates the wrong leg, or a lawyer who is drunk in court, or an engineer who calculates the steel supports of a building wrongly. Such people are a menace to society and a disgrace to their professions. If the article of this article has faked his data, as many reports suggest, he should be stripped of any prizes and awards and dismissed from his teaching position. Anything less, and the professional organizations of historians condemn themselves by their failure to police their own ranks. Having spent 22 years in higher education, I know that a professor's integrity is his only stock in trade. When that is gone, he should be gone as well. Name: History's Watching - 67.161.240.54 Comments: Let me get this straight: You faked a bunch of data. Others called you to the carpet on it. You then are unable to produce your source material because "it was lost in a flood." What next, you will tell us that your dog ate your homework? Name: Carl Polizzi - 24.177.112.190 Comments: My apoligies for having taken a harsh and short-sighted stand regarding Professor Bellesiles’s scholarship regarding his recent book. I will endeavor to discuss the subject in detail with my gunnie pals. Thanks for the explanation, and please try to understand why people are so passionate on the subject: freedom is vanishing at an alarming rate. Name: W. Simons, CDR, USN, (Ret.) - 206.129.8.62 Comments: It appears to me that Mr. B. spent 10% or his paper explaining minor errors and 90% complaining about being unpopular and harassed. What about the many other documented errors of fact such as claiming to have reviewed records which did not exist. Final grade for this paper... D-. |
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